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phosphate with EI - higher than 3 ppm?

Andy Pierce

Andy Pierce

Member
Joined
27 Nov 2020
Messages
841
Location
Cambridge, UK
EI dosing 'full' has 3 ppm phosphate. Is there any point in going higher with phosphate with respect to inhibiting GSA? Calculated out, my weekly added phosphate is currently 2.8 ppm but I've stopped daily dosing EasyCarbo (because I think it's hurting the vallis) and I sense some renewed vigor with the GSA in reponse.

Anyone here doing EI dosing with > 3 ppm phosphate?
 
Andy Pierce said:
EI dosing 'full' has 3 ppm phosphate. Is there any point in going higher with phosphate with respect to inhibiting GSA? Calculated out, my weekly added phosphate is currently 2.8 ppm but I've stopped daily dosing EasyCarbo (because I think it's hurting the vallis) and I sense some renewed vigor with the GSA in reponse.

Anyone here doing EI dosing with > 3 ppm phosphate?
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Hi @Andy Pierce sometimes last year I had a big outbreak of GSA in both my tanks (the two low-tech tanks a very similar with regards to plant mass livestock etc. - heavily planted). I did a number of things to get rid of the problem: Lowered the light intensity a bit further (it was already pretty low). Upped my WC amount to about 50% (up from 20-30%) weekly. In addition, I started to increase my PO4 dosing to a full 10ppm weekly (occasionally more). After a couple of weeks things really started to change. The GSA receded quickly and a week or two later it was completely gone. My dosing regime at that time was Tropica Specialized and Tropica Premium - so I upped the measly ~1ppm of PO4 to 10ppm by adding Seachem Phosphate in addition to the tropica (later on I switch to 100% DIY dosing using dry salts for everything). I kept the 10ppm dosing of PO4 since then and haven't seen a speck of GSA or any other algae to speak of since then or any adverse effects on my plants or livestock(fish/shrimps/snails). Of course, my experience is anecdotal, but it appears to correspond well with the experts assessment of the cause of GSA outbreaks.

btw. I never had any luck using liquid carbon in the water column to combat algae issues - it would melt my Valis and mosses as well. I know others have had luck with liquid carbon against BBA and other algae, so perhaps it was due to my application.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Purely anecdotal @Andy Pierce but I recently did a non scientific test and here's my findings.

Following on from discussions in this thread Lean dosing pros and cons ..I cut my ei dosing by 50% to see what effect, if any, it would have.

Proir to reducing ferts I added 4ppm of Po4 pw, extra Po4 had been added to combat Gsa. The new dosing program adds 2ppm.

I'm about 2 weeks into this experiment and starting to see gsa appearing on the leaves of some plants and also seeing bits appearing on the glass. No other changes have been made regards C02 or light throughout this period.

In fairness I suspected this would happen, but needed to witness the effect for myself. I can't confirm increasing the dosing levels will cure this issue (only reinstated original dosing levels on Friday) but if history is anything to go by I expect it will.

Obviously it needs to be stressed that all the ferts were reduced in this test, not just P04.

I'd suggest you just increase the levels of phosphate and report back any findings.
 
I also would like to test dosing PO4.
Currently using Tropica Specialised.
Yet to find out what amount of PO4 is already present in my tap water.
I am in Epsom Surrey if anyone happens to know??
I know that Nitrates are pretty high out of the tap. If so should the PO4 be increased to even things out? I don't know.
Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree!

Thanks
 
Small update... 2 weeks reduced ei, 2ppm po4, clearly other issues going on but will post pics(good or bad) in another 2 weeks so we can see the difference. Picture is quite a good representation as to what I'm seeing 👀

20211205_142009.jpg
10 pts available if anyone can identify the other
defiency.
 
Hi all,
si walker said:
I know that Nitrates are pretty high out of the tap. If so should the PO4 be increased to even things out? I don't know.
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It depends upon the source of the orthophosphate (PO4---) ions. If they are present in the water supply because they've come from surface water, or shallow aquifers, with raised levels from optical brighteners in <"washing powder, treated sewage and agricultural pollution"> then both values are likely to be high.

Because the SE of England is so heavily populated, and <"water is in short supply">, many water companies have been forced <"to put in phosphate strippers"> at <"waste waste plants">, but they don't need to report the level of PO4--- in the tap water they supply, because there isn't a statutory limit. Water supply issues can only get worse in S. England, so I would expect the water companies to have to come up with ever <"more innovative ways"> of keeping us supplied with drinking water.

The only reason this won't happen is if, in the UK (<"post-Brexit">), we have such a big bonfire of environmental legislation that companies can get away with <"American levels of water treatment">.

Even if your tap water is <"naturally hard"> the water company is likely to add phosphate to it, this is to give "belt and braces" in the <"control of heavy metals in tap water"> and means that all tap water in the UK will have <"~0.5 ppm PO4---">, even if there isn't any anthropogenic input.

cheers Darrel
 
NotoriousENG said:
I've seen the quality of American water treatment mentioned a few times and it really makes me wonder if I should stop drinking it. Particularly since I live close to DC...
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Really depends... I am not familiar with the water in DC. The quality seems to vary quite a bit across the country.... You obviously can't really asses the quality from the taste alone, but bad tasting water is of course a red flag whether it's healthy of not. Our water is pretty good tasting especially after switching over to KCL resin in our water softener and the city water is generally considered very good around here.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Hi all,
NotoriousENG said:
I've seen the quality of American water treatment mentioned a few times and it really makes me wonder if I should stop drinking it
Click to expand...
MichaelJ said:
The quality seems to vary quite a bit across the country.... You obviously can't really asses the quality from the taste alone, but bad tasting water is of course a red flag whether it's healthy of not.
Click to expand...
It is variability really. In the USA you can have many more grades of water than we have in N. Europe, including cleaner, purer water as well as the stuff from the <"Potomac river">. It all depends on the water source, and the USA still has intact aquifers and watersheds, mainly because N. America is a sparsely populated continent.

The US model is extract the water and give it the minimum amount of treatment that the water company can get away with. If you have a water source that is full of <"coliform bacteria">? You put 5 ppm of chlorine in it, to make it micro-biologically "safe", so you aren't sued by your customers. What they don't do is improve their infrastructure, because that costs money and impinges on your bottom line.

The situation is different in N. Europe, we've had 5000 years to trash our continent and we are the birth place of <"the industrial revolution">. The legacy of this is that we are a densely populated continent and certain regions (S. England, Netherlands, Ruhr region etc) have very high population densities.

This is the population density map of the UK:

1*7PuOErZ1mOwPRURYEqkhOg.png
In the UK every scrap of land is owned and farmed and we don't have any primary wilderness, even our National Parks are just areas which are slightly less agriculturally degraded (and slightly less development friendly) than the rest of the country.

We need <"enforceable environmental legislation"> to maintain any sort of water, or <"air, quality">.

cheers Darrel
 
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MichaelJ said:
Really depends... I am not familiar with the water in DC. The quality seems to vary quite a bit across the country.... You obviously can't really asses the quality from the taste alone, but bad tasting water is of course a red flag whether it's healthy of not. Our water is pretty good tasting especially after switching over to KCL resin in our water softener and the city water is generally considered very good around here.

Cheers,
Michael
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The water out here is definitely the worst tasting that I've experienced. It's not so bad now that it's winter, but during the summer the taste can only be described as pond water mixed with swimming pool water.

dw1305 said:
as well as the stuff from the <"Potomac river">.
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Pretty sure that's what I'm drinking. The county gets its water through a wholesaler so it could be from any number of other surface water sources though. Maybe I should get new filters for my RO system and get it hooked up...

Also @Andy Pierce, I apologize for the thread hijack.
 
NotoriousENG said:
The water out here is definitely the worst tasting that I've experienced. It's not so bad now that it's winter, but during the summer the taste can only be described as pond water mixed with swimming pool water.
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Hi @NotoriousENG Yeah, its one of those things that really grinds my gears. Why do we put up with water that is not up to par?...I mean, when did water become a profit center in the first place? Whomever is in charge of providing drinking water should go out of their way to make sure its as good as practically possible - no one should profit from clean drinking water - no one! And I am all for free enterprise and all that - my livelyhood is relying on it... but water? no one should ever consider profit above the best possible water or the environment for that matter...
NotoriousENG said:
Also @Andy Pierce, I apologize for the thread hijack.
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No apologize needed, your raising a very valid point.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Hi all,
MichaelJ said:
Why do we put up with water that is not up to par?...I mean, when did water become a profit center in the first place? Whomever is in charge of providing drinking water should go out of their way to make sure its as good as practically possible - no one should profit from clean drinking water - no one!
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If I was a <"totally amoral"> hedge fund investor I would be looking very closely at buying a water company. Rather than short term gain, asset stripping and dismembering the company I would play the long game and actually invest in infrastructure etc.

The rationale would be that every-one needs water, and potentially they will pay much more for it than they do at the moment. As water supplies become more tenuous I would be in a position to supply a premium product at a premium price. I would speculate that buyers would be utilities and businesses that had no where else to go.

cheers Darrel
 
dw1305 said:
Hi all,

If I was a <"totally amoral"> hedge fund investor I would be looking very closely at buying a water company. Rather than short term gain, asset stripping and dismembering the company I would play the long game and actually invest in infrastructure etc.

The rationale would be that every-one needs water, and potentially they will pay much more for it than they do at the moment. As water supplies become more tenuous I would be in a position to supply a premium product at a premium price. I would speculate that buyers would be utilities and businesses that had no where else to go.

cheers Darrel
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Or, you could provide a crap product at a premium price because the customers have no where else to go... 🙁
 
Just thought I'd update on how the Hydrocotyle is reacting to the increase in phosphate dosing from 2 ppm to 4 ppm.

Growth overall has increased remarkably and there is no notable gsa visible on this new growth, there is still some minor spotting on the older leaves but this is definitely reducing.

To add some balance it should be noted that all the fert levels were increased, not just the PO4, so it could well be that whole is greater than sum of the parts.

The pictures I've added aren't that clear but should be clear enough to see the gsa is in retreat.
20211218_113844.jpg20211218_111815.jpg20211218_112145.jpg
 
I must be lucky with my tap water: nice taste and moderately soft/hard. (About 100pm total hardness) and plenty of it. Old property and low water rates.

In the UK you can always sink your our well, no permission required. No one owns water under English Law but access to it may be owned ie the land its on/under or abuts to. Less than 4000 Imperial gals per day no abstraction permit required, you could do a few water changes with that especially if you stopped washing.

Seriously I dug down 6ft and hit running water, a small aquifer between layers of soft sandstone, but for most of the year there is a small stream at the side of the garden. I have a neighbour who is metred for drinking water but pulls water for his garden out of the brook that runs through his land.

Sorry about being off topic with phosphate but water supply is always interesting.
 
John q said:
Just thought I'd update on how the Hydrocotyle is reacting to the increase in phosphate dosing from 2 ppm to 4 ppm.

Growth overall has increased remarkably and there is no notable gsa visible on this new growth, there is still some minor spotting on the older leaves but this is definitely reducing.

To add some balance it should be noted that all the fert levels were increased, not just the PO4, so it could well be that whole is greater than sum of the parts.

The pictures I've added aren't that clear but should be clear enough to see the gsa is in retreat.
View attachment 178555View attachment 178556View attachment 178557
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Very nice John! How long did it take to see the effect? I've been doing 10ppm of PO4 weekly for a very long time now. Zero GSA. Down from when I had a lot on my Anubias especially and hardly dosed PO4 (~1 ppm/week). Now, 10ppm is hardly necessary and I could almost certainly shave off 5ppm and reduce my overall TDS. I do remember that it took a couple of weeks to really see the impact - I had already lowered the light intensity a bit beforehand, so its likely a combination of the lower light and the PO4 dosing. I do not know what it is that the PO4 dosing is doing exactly vs. GSA - is it giving the plants the ability to fend them off or is it the GSA that do not thrive with high levels of PO4? Not clear to me. I would assume at 10ppm there are more PO4 available than the plants will possibly need in a low energy tank.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Two weeks @MichaelJ no other changes have been made to the tank. The only reason I lowerd the dosing regime was to prove a point to myself.
Honestly don't know if it's the extra P04 that's reversed the gsa onslaught but suspect its helped.
 
John q said:
Two weeks @MichaelJ no other changes have been made to the tank. The only reason I lowerd the dosing regime was to prove a point to myself.
Honestly don't know if it's the extra P04 that's reversed the gsa onslaught but suspect its helped.
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I must add that when I started the "treatment" in both my tanks I did it slightly asynchronously - about 1-2 weeks apart. I saw the same effect in both tanks eventually. It's not entirely possible to rule out other factors being equally important, but I'm pretty confident upping the PO4 dosing helped. In hindsight I wish I would have been a bit more meticulous about taking notes about the other things that I did.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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