Javafern - Brown Splotches

[tam]

My javafern has brown splotches on its leaves...


It's definitely the leaves themselves not algae growing on them - it goes all the way through. It's growing new leaves (centre) but they start getting little brown dots (left/right leaf) which develop into big splotches (second from left).

I've been dosing Tropica Specialised for about 3 months now (no CO2). I think it's been growing new leaves a bit faster but it doesn't seem to have stopped them getting patches.

Any advice?

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

Co2 or lower light

 

[tam]

I'm running a single grobeam 600 about 45cm above the substrate - not sure how high light that would be considered.

But, I don't think it's the light, the ones I photographed are front and centre but I have a trickle filter that sits on the top of the tank covering the back 1/3 and the plants under that are getting the same patches and they'd get virtually no direct light.

 

[ceg4048]

not sure how high light that would be considered

As Nate says, when you see brown patches on leaves consider that it it due to poor CO2 driven by too much light.

Cheers,

 

[tam]

Is there another factor? The reason I'm particularly frustrated is I gave my brother an identical light (I bought a twin pack) and his javafern (also from me) is a lovely lush green! He even has a clump attached to wood that's only 10" or so from the light (again no CO2). That's why I'm reluctant to believe that my javafern tucked at the back getting less light is suffering from too much 🙂

 

[ceg4048]

Is there another factor?

No. It doesn't matter what happens in any other tank and it doesn't matter what other things are identical in other tanks. In YOUR tank there is a problem with CO2. Prune the leaves and maybe the new leaves that grow in will be better adapted to the conditions in your tank.

Cheers,

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Just take the old splodgy leaves off.

I'll ignore CO2 as I don't add it and I have fairly lush Java Ferns, but the new leaves look a bit pale in the photo which is suggestive of too much light or not enough N or K. (I know your fertiliser contains these, but probably in fairly low amounts).

You could try adding some KNO3 and see if the newer leaves green up a bit.

cheers Darrel

 

[tam]

No. It doesn't matter what happens in any other tank and it doesn't matter what other things are identical in other tanks. In YOUR tank there is a problem with CO2. Prune the leaves and maybe the new leaves that grow in will be better adapted to the conditions in your tank.

Cheers,

Sorry to be contrary, but that is not how science works. If I've got two identical conditions (same light/no CO2 injection) and I'm getting different results then there is another factor at play. Maybe it is CO2 related e.g. different surface area to volume ratio or different volume/type of plants or open v. closed top but it doesn't mean throwing CO2 at it is the only solution. I would have thought looking at similar tanks and working out what slight differences cause what effects would be a pretty useful exercise.

Thanks Daniel, I'm pretty low stocked at the moment after I lost a few fish, just waiting for a new quarantine tank, so KNO3 could be an issue. Some of the paleness is my photography skills but I think I'll nab a leaf out of my brothers tank and pop it next to mine to compare directly.

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

Congratulations, you've just hit self destruct.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all

Some of the paleness is my photography skills but I think I'll nab a leaf out of my brothers tank and pop it next to mine to compare directly

Have a look at the "Duckweed Index" (the links in my post on page 2 of this thread <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/adding-nitrate-to-stocked-aquarium.33752/page-2#post-360006>).

It uses a floating plant to take CO2 out of the equation, but you can use the same approach for slow growing submerged plants like Java Fern, Anubias etc. The aim is just to add enough nutrients to maintain your plants with some growth.

I originally adopted it as a method because I wanted to use plants to improve water quality during the tertiary phase of the bio-remediation of landfill leachate. You could arrive at a stage where nutrient (usually nitrogen or potassium) levels were low enough to be likely to stop active plant growth, although the "water" could still have quite a high conductivity and BOD (although a fraction of what it had started with).

When I came back to fish-keeping I knew that actively growing plants were the single factor that had the greatest effect on water quality, and that if I had an appropriate set-up I could use floating or emergent plants to "polish" the water in a simple and robust set up.

After a bit of mucking about (I started with less water turn-over than I have now, but when I had to junk the over-tank wet and dry filters (divorce was the other option) I found that canister filters didn't provide the level of oxygenation I wanted) I found that lots of plants and the "Duckweed Index" was a KISS solution to fish keeping.

cheers Darrel

 

[Edvet]

divorce was the other option

Divorce is always an option, at least that's what my missus states.........

 

[tam]

Darrel - your duckweed index was mentioned in another thread I read and it sounded like a great idea so I introduced some about 10 days ago!

This is the tank from the top:


The filter is in the silver box at the back, the tank extends underneath it and javafern is on the back wall under it.

Close up of the 'duckweed'


A couple of the older leaves are a bit tatty but I was putting that down to having been through the postal system.

 

[James O]

Sorry to be contrary, but that is not how science works. If I've got two identical conditions (same light/no CO2 injection) and I'm getting different results then there is another factor at play.

Thats like saying you and your next door neighbour's lives are, on every level identical, just because your houses are the same. It's a little (well a lot) more complex

You don't have identical conditions, just equipment.

 

[chmarshall81]

I recently had the same problem. Always thought my ferns to be super hardy. Until I had to cycle my tank again (long story). Shortly after that I used myxazin and aq salt to treat pop eye and fin rot. So obviously my parameters were way off. Too much of the bad chemicals and too little good nutrients. I added some iron rich fertilizer tablets and flourish excel. Seems to do the trick. My fry tank is well cycled (lots of light, no CO2) and the ferns there thrive. I suggest taking your ferns out, let someone look after it for a bit until you stabilize your tank.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Plants look fine.

A couple of the older leaves are a bit tatty but I was putting that down to having been through the postal system.

Pinch the old brown leaves off the Salvinia, you can see the new leaves growing at the other end of the axis. Your Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) looks OK as well, but maybe a little yellow. My suspicion would be that you have a bit more light intensity (PAR) than the tank they were in before. I'd keep an eye on the new leaves, if they don't green up in 10 days or so I'd try the KNO3.

You get a pretty instant effect with KNO3, so if nothing happens you can discount N and K and well as CO2.

cheers Darrel

 

[tam]

Thats like saying you and your next door neighbour's lives are, on every level identical, just because your houses are the same. It's a little (well a lot) more complex. You don't have identical conditions, just equipment.

Nope, that's not at all what I'm saying 🙂 I'm saying we have similar houses but there are lots of other factors that make our lives different and I'd like to understand which of those might be an influence, as I maybe able to replicate them in my house to effect the change I want without pumping gas in.

Darrel - thanks very much for the advice. I'll pinch the old leaves of those and the javafern and see how they do. The lights in the hood so they are very close to it. I guess they will add a little extra shade for the javafern too if that is contributing to the issue. The frogbit hasn't grown many new leaves yet but it's grown some very cool roots!

 

[James O]

but there are lots of other factors that make our lives different and I'd like to understand which of those might be an influence

Light, CO2 and ferts are the holy trinity

As Nate says, when you see brown patches on leaves consider that it it due to poor CO2 driven by too much light.

Lots to read on this.....

 

[tam]

Light, CO2 and ferts are the holy trinity

Not disputing that, but you can influence those without just pumping in more CO2, ferts or increasing/decreasing your light settings e.g. circulation, surface agitation, water change frequency (and what's in your water), plant density/type/competition, shade e.g. floaters, substrate, livestock levels - even what you stock... if I lose my bristle nose plec and start getting a little bit of algae do I need to up my CO2 or just add a new plec? Throwing more CO2 at a problem might fix it, but it doesn't mean it's the only way.

 

[James O]

"...driven by too much light" -

Fiddle around to your hearts content looking for an alternative.

Everyone else either adds CO2 to keep up with the lighting, or reduces the lighting. 'turn your lighting down' is probably the single most frequent answer given on ukaps

I'll be interested to hear when you can prove your tank is so well balanced that a single fish makes a difference😀

But for now you have brown blotchy leaves 😉

 

[tam]

I'll be interested to hear when you can prove your tank is so well balanced that a single fish makes a difference😀

But for now you have brown blotchy leaves 😉

You've obviously never dropped a couple of bristle noses in a tank with a bit of an algae issue - it's like Mr Muscle - grime to spotless almost overnight.

I chopped my leaves off, no splotches here 😛