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With what replace KNO3 ?
- Thread starter eminor
- Start date
KirstyF
Member
I think it’s Urea CO(NH2)2 and NH4NO3 is ammonium nitrate but I could be wrong so hoping one of our ‘chemists’ can verify.😊
Correct on both
jolt100
Member
Also known as Ureum in Europe?
John q
Member
Yes plants use less energy converting ammonia/m..
Be warned... algae also prefer ammonium to kno3.
Personally I've tried urea and didn't notice any difference. Healthy plants will eat what they can, folks with unhealthy plants will chase their tails and look for easy alternatives. Sorry to be blunt but the easy way doesn't exist. 👍
plantnoobdude
Member
As long as ph is Low and you are doin small doses it is safe.
I would dose anywhere from 1-3ppm Nitrogen from urea/ 4-13ppm no3. Split into daily dose.
John q
Member
So would I, providing you've no critters in the tank.
Well, my plant are in a good shape, just want to boost green's
my tap is 7 ph, with co2 (24/7), ph 6 so it's fine i think
By the way, last question, i promise, what form of nitrates does tap water contain ? thx
plantnoobdude
Member
Ph sounds good. Start with a small dose and fish should be fine.
Tap water should be mostly no3, and traces of nh4/nh3 and no2.
John q
Member
One atom of nitrogen and 3 atoms of oxygen 😀
plants have pathways to use NO3 and NH3/4 … in a perfect world, you deliver the “perfect” proportion (for other current, fixed conditions) to suit the plants need.
But the world is not perfect, so the plant can convert an imbalance of NO3 to NH3/4 and vice versa … cool.
A somewhat analogy:
So the plant want to have a cake base and the icing from the store so it can just make a cake … but if you give it flour and eggs etc, it can make the icing and cake base … but it requires some “work”.
Urea on the other hand is “used” by the plant via an enzyme urease and that enzyme yields co2 and the nitrogen source by splitting the urea. So what you have is this “trick” to get co2 into your plant without worrying about flow!!!!! …
who cares about gas laws when a fish can just pee on a nearby plant and fertilize it with N and CO2!
So is it easier? I mean, you get co2 for “free” … does the plant have an easier time? It gets co2 for “free”.
If you feed only NO3, you need to convert some and that costs co2. If you feed only ammonia, it needs to convert some and that cost co2. Urea gives N and co2 … liquid gold.
But I mean … what if your flow and distribution is on point such that co2 is already being delivered appropriately … then why bother with urea. Just add another fish and feed more.
This is where @John q can almost say with confidence his co2 and flow were on point when he dosed that urea … since the “change” made no noticeable difference.
I might be misremembering, but I thought the fish species we keep in our tanks produce only ammonia, and that the group of fish that produce urea are not the kind we would keep in a fish tank?
If this is the case then adding more fish doesnt necessarily do exactly the same thing?
Guilty as charged …
Found this paper: Urea excretion as a strategy for survival in a fish living in a very alkaline environment - PubMed
Turns out they produce primarily ammonia with “some” urea … go figure.
Still nice however especially if we are dosing some NO3.
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Add more NO3 and be done with it instead. Simple, easy, safe and no need to be daily dosing and being careful etc etc.
John q
Member
Its amazing how many studies have been done regards Amonnia & Urea transporters in fish.
In the main I'd tend to agree with you that Amonnia will account for the bulk of gill or poop excretion by fish but suspect there will be some urea produced, albeit in small quantities.
If anybody hasn't got plans to stick pins in their eyes this afternoon I found this article rather interesting, it's basically a review of years of studies into this question.
Ammonia and urea transporters in gills of fish and aquatic crustaceans
SUMMARY. The diversity of mechanisms of ammonia and urea excretion by the gills and other epithelia of aquatic organisms, especially fish and crustaceans, has been studied for decades. Although the decades-old dogma of `aquatic species excrete ammonia' still explains nitrogenous waste excretion...
journals.biologists.com
It really is this rabbit hole where we realize the crux of the EI ideology.
Frankly, go look at Tom Barr’s photos and journals etc and videos of when he feeds. There is one where he lobs handfuls and handfuls of food into a tank that is “overstocked” by many.
Then he lards in KNO3 (at the time).
Using this thread only, you can immediately see why that works and I reckon if he did not do that, there is a chance he would either have to turn up co2, adjust flow, adjust O2, adjust agitation, or simply have leggier plants.
Frankly, go look at Tom Barr’s photos and journals etc and videos of when he feeds. There is one where he lobs handfuls and handfuls of food into a tank that is “overstocked” by many.
Then he lards in KNO3 (at the time).
Using this thread only, you can immediately see why that works and I reckon if he did not do that, there is a chance he would either have to turn up co2, adjust flow, adjust O2, adjust agitation, or simply have leggier plants.
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_Maq_
Member
Not sure whether I've understood the context but plants cannot convert ammonium into nitrate.
In general, I've studied more than just a few papers on the question of nitrate vs. ammonium nutrition of plants, esp. submerged plants. In sum, it is believed that aquatic plants slightly prefer ammonium, yet in most instances, plants grew best when both ammonium and nitrates were available.
The issue is not that simple just to say 'assimilating ammonium is less demanding energetically'. There are circumstances which must be included into account.
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Damn, i have no fish in that tank, i really need urea, to get more room for error with flow =)
does prilled urea the same as powder ? it say 46% urea
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
You need to be a little bit careful, because cheaper urea prills often <"have biuret present">.
cheers Darrel
