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Whats your pH profile?

I think you could put a co2 dropchecker at the bottom of your tank and up the co2 slowly until its the right colour. The reason for this is that you cant take ph measurements that low under water.
 
Could it be that a drop checker is yellow, nutrients, lighting, circulation are good and still have algae?
 
Definately Jaap. Just because you can (and thisis normally the case) have 5ppm in a part of the tank and 30 ppm in another, even though you might think your circulation is good. Also its not only about co2 ppm but also about its stability during photoperiod.
 
I mean stability through the photoperiod. So lets say if you are aiming at having a ph of 6.5, then it should stay at this value for the whole of the photoperiod. What you dont want is your co2 to be climbing up through the photoperiod. So you need some degassing/surface ripple so that co2 doesnt accumulate in your tank. Any clearer?
 
Jose said:
Im doing this in order to not get any fluctuation during photoperiod, which induces algae supposedly. Its very hard for most people to have co2 stable like Parotets case because you need a lot of surface agitation and a lot of bps
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Hi, back home again... I'm not sure if this change in the pH measured is due to any combination of low bps, surface agitation, etc. or just a matter of the measurement accuracy (I use a pro pH meter which is stupidly accurate). Moreover I borrow only from time to time this pHmeter from work, but I continuously change the configuration (i.e. I increase the bubble rate when I have more biomass).... so the pH profile is just a way of ensuring that I am more or less on the right track or to corroborate what I can see with my eyes. Therefore I'm not really sure if the curve is exactly like this or if there is a variation in the pH of 0.05-0.1

Jordi
 
Sorry guys I didn't mean to hijack.

I'll elaborate some on my tank if you don't mind Jaap.

Tank
120x33x60 230 litre

Filter
Fluval 406 1500lph + 1200lph or so powerhead

Light
Currently I have a 120cm finnex ds 7000k. Based on other people's par readings it seems to put down about 40-50 par at the substrate at 60cm. 7hrs per day.

Ph and co2
I have an inline atomizer on the Fluval 406 which is connected to the bottom spray bar. It also has the skimmer on it. The powerhead is running the top spray bar. I realize my tank is fairly deep and that a lot of current is needed to get the water to go all the way down the front of the glass then traverse the bottom. I feel like it should be good as I can see all the bubbles running along the bottom and then gently swaying the plants as it goes up the back wall.

My ph is very stable at 6.0 during the photo period. I religiously top up my tank to the exact same height every night at lights out. If I don't do that my ph will be off by about .1 the next day.

I also sometimes come across my skimmer getting clogged (underwater draw) and changing the amount it skims the surface and degasses. Therefore I have to check my skimmer every morning and make sure it's free of debris before co2 comes on. It might get me once a week.

Temp
Tank is heater free and usually 24 or 25 degrees C. Sometimes 23 and rarely goes up to 26.

I appreciate all the help fellas.

Marc
 
mlongpre said:
My ph is very stable at 6.0 during the photo period. I religiously top up my tank to the exact same height every night at lights out. If I don't do that my ph will be off by about .1 the next day.
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Well done mate. Seems like you are doing things quite right. Whats the problem then?
 
Ups sorry. Didnt make the connection mlongpre:cyclops:. I get it now. Have you thought about what I said of putting a dropchecker down there? Maybe its just a question of upping your co2 a bit until it turns almost yellow. I understand you have a 1.4 ph drop? which is very good, but this is probably measured at the top of the tank.
 
Okay so a few more things. I do have a drop checker. It's got 5dkh fluid in it purchased from a shop. It turns yellowish green at 6.0 ph.

10:30 PH 7.4 CO2 on
11:15 PH 6.6
12:00 PH 6.2
1:00 PH 6.1
2:30 PH 6.0 Lights on

9:00 PH 6.0 CO2 off
9:30 PH 6.2 Lights off

I've also noticed that my tank water doesn't completely degas during the night as my water from tank has gone up to 7.7 after sitting out for awhile. So is my ph drop really 1.7?

Still can't get the plants to grow well. Always stunting and twisting gnarled growth. Yellow patches everywhere on old leaves. Should a go under 40 par? Maybe try 30 or so? But then I'm getting down to such low light levels I probably don't even need co2.


Co2 is extremely frustrating!!! 24/7 seems like a good work around to this constant headache. At least I'd be able to rule out co2 cause it would be stable right?
 
I think something is wrong with your measurement mlongpre. With that ph drop you are supposed to have 150 to 180 ppms of CO2 which is obviously imposible if you have fish in there.
Now, one possibility is that something might be interfering with your ph pen. Try turning off all thats connected to the electricity in your tank and then measure pH.

If your CO2 isnt completely degassed through the night then you probably havent got enough surface movement/ flow in the tank. Have you got any surface film?

How are plants evolving>? This is the main factor.

By the way I changed my mind on dropcheckers and believe they are wothless now:thumbdown:.
 
mlongpre said:
Should a go under 40 par? Maybe try 30 or so? But then I'm getting down to such low light levels I probably don't even need co2.
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Yes try lowering light until problems get better. Using CO2 does not mean you need higher light, and using low light does not mean you dont need co2. In other words, the lower light is with co2 the easier it will be to manage while still obtaining great growth.

You see, the more light you have then the more available CO2 you need for the plants cells. If this availability is not met then the plant will do all sorts of weird things including dying back.
 
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Jose said:
If your CO2 isnt completely degassed through the night then you probably havent got enough surface movement/ flow in the tank. Have you got any surface film?
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Not necessarily true! my dc never changes back to blue overnight and I only have a ph drop of .5 ph from gas on to lights on but if i take a sample of tank water and leave it to de gas for 2 days I get a 1.3 - 1.4 ph difference
and there's no film or algae in my tank, it also pearls like crazy every night
I've also read other members posts saying the same thing too
 
Big clown said:
Not necessarily true! my dc never changes back to blue overnight and I only have a ph drop of .5 ph from gas on to lights on but if i take a sample of tank water and leave it to de gas for 2 days I get a 1.3 - 1.4 ph difference
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ideally you want all the co2 to degass. If you dont have good mixing and surface ripple your co2 will climb and not stay at a stable level during the day.
Not having it all degassed through the nigh just means the off gassing isnt efficient enough in your tank. Can you get away with it? Maybe.
 
Big clown said:
why its a waste, if your fish arn't gasping what's the point in de gassing it some people run co2 24 hours a day with less issues than people who use a solenoid
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No its not a waste. If co2 is not degassing well in a few hours it means you have very little off gassing of CO2 which will make it very easy for CO2 levels to creep to lethal levels during photoperiod. It also means more CO2 fluctuations. Ill add the link to Tom Barrs threads when I have more time.

I add co2 24/7 myself and I can say this is not a good idea. After a few days fishes blood will saturate with co2 depending on the levels, so you wont be able to have 30 ppm of co2 continually if you dont giv fish a break.
 
fish get red gills well before they start gasping which is why red gills are better indicator than gasping. like i said , i have a 1.3 to 1.4 ph drop from standing sample and half a point between gas on and gas off so the fish are getting some respite, tank pearls daily within half hour of lights on no algae and there's obviously plenty of o2 in the water. fish are also very active at all levels of the tank. yes my methods may be different to tom barrs but it works in my tank.
fish are 4 years old so don't know about long term effects yet, but imo if they last over 5 years that's not a bad lifespan for them.
truthfully I couldn't tell you the kh or co2 ppm in the tank but i don't really care my fish and plants are healthy and that's ok by me regardless of what other peoples methods are.
stability is the key in my eyes how about showing me your own data instead of other peoples
 
So if you recommend EI to someone you need to show them your own experiments and data?Youve made your point, ive made mine let the op decide what he preffers.

Good luck if you think a hobbiests data/experiments would be better/more usefull than Tom Barrs results.
 
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