What am I doing wrong? Please help

[Goldie Prawn]

Hi 👋🏼
I have a 20l tank which is fully cycled and has been running for a few months now (nearly 4 months). I’ve had blue shrimp in there and every now but then I find one dead which is disheartening. When I check the parameters they are stable and suitable for shrimp. Some have been in there for nearly 3 weeks and seem fine and other times I’ll just find one dead one. So I’m at a loss with them. On to the fish part:

Last week I added micro rasbora as our ph tends to be on the lower side and stays around 6.8. which I understand is within range for rasboras. They were mostly doing well, fun little things to watch and not shy. They seemed happy swimming around the tank and liked the powdered down food I have been feeding them. However, I have just found one dead 🥹 floating at the top of the tank.

I cleaned the substrate yesterday and did a 20% water change using tap water conditioner and easy balance. My parameters are as follows below and have been consistent. Can anyone please tell me what I’m doing wrong?! I’m at my wits end obsessing over the parameters and checking on the fish and shrimp. I know that smaller tanks are much harder to maintain stability which is why I’ve been working so hard to monitor it so it just makes me sad when I find a dead fish or shrimp.

Parameters are:

GH 9
KH 5 (raised gradually from 1 a few weeks ago (prior to adding fish) to help with stability and shrimp moults ((not that I can see that any have moulted 😅))) (((((so many brackets)))))
PH 6.8 (I tested the LFS water the shrimp and fish came from and the ph was 7.6 so I acclimated them first)
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Temp 24.3c (I know on the higher end for shrimp, it’s preset. I plan to get one I can set the temperature to 22c)

If someone has read through all that waffle I’d really appreciate some help. I don’t want to lose any more of these sweet little chaps. I’m looking in to buying a 55l in the hopes that it will be easier to mantain stability 😔 I’ve lost 3 shrimp and now my little rasbora. I hate to think they have suffered at all.

Thanks.

 

[louis_last]

Did you drip acclimate the shrimp when you got them? That's the thing that leaps to mind for me. In the past I didn't realise the importance of acclimating shrimp properly, just floated the bag to let temperature equalise and added a little tank water before dumping them in.
Drip acclimating them, slowly, makes a huge difference to survival, much more so for shrimp than most fish. When I didn't drip acclimate I had one batch of 12 cherries from which four did within 24 hours due to failed moults and the rest perished over the next few weeks. A different batch from the same vendor that I subsequently drip accimated over about 8 hours all thrived.
I go overboard with acclimating shrimp now by gradually diluting the water they came in with tank water over several hours and then gradually replacing it entirely with pure tank water before eventually netting them out and adding to the tank. They're usually somewhat starved from shipping and I also give them some really high quality food while they acclimate.
The change in osmotic pressure between different water chemistry can be very stressful for them and basically force a moult which if the shrimp aren't strong enough for due to other stresses from shipping or poor diet can kill them very easily.
The ability for water changes to force a moult in shrimp is actually exploited sometimes when breeding amano shrimp as you can force berried females to release the larvae by inducing a moult.
It could be other things too but I reckon a lot of people underestimate the importance of drip acclimating shrimp.
The fish could just be a coincidence, it's not exactly rare to lose one or two when they are new, especially small and delicate fish but 20 Litres is also quite small for any fish.

 

[louis_last]

I also highly recommend Bacter AE for any shrimp. I've seen no visible evidence that it has any noticeable impact on biofilm formation but it certainly has a positive effect on overall shrimp health and vitality, improves colour and improves survival of babies.
Shrimp used to immediately swarm any food I put in the tank but they don't since I started dosing a little bacter ae daily. They will still eat supplemental foods but they're clearly nowhere near as hungry most of the time and often prefer to just graze the biolfilm which it seems the bacter ae must be contributing towards even if it isn't visible. I was very skeptical about the product at first but it's actually really good stuff.

 

[LMuhlen]

My first impression is that KH 5 and pH 6.8 aren't really compatible without some serious CO2 injection. Something sounds off.

 

[Goldie Prawn]

I also highly recommend Bacter AE for any shrimp. I've seen no visible evidence that it has any noticeable impact on biofilm formation but it certainly has a positive effect on overall shrimp health and vitality, improves colour and improves survival of babies.
Shrimp used to immediately swarm any food I put in the tank but they don't since I started dosing a little bacter ae daily. They will still eat supplemental foods but they're clearly nowhere near as hungry most of the time and often prefer to just graze the biolfilm which it seems the bacter ae must be contributing towards even if it isn't visible. I was very skeptical about the product at first but it's actually really good stuff.

Thank you for this - I use Bacter AE - I add a tiny amount on a toothpick tip seeing as it’s such a small tank without many shrimps. I acclimated them for an hour as I’d read so much conflicting advice. They were also from my LFS only about 10 mins away and our parameters weren’t far off each others (I tested their water, it was just slightly higher PH). I think in future (if they don’t survive 😔) I’ve take your advice and properly drip acclimate them. I’ve heard people force moults and I don’t want to do that! But I haven’t seen a single moult. The shrimp seem pretty happy. I agree my tank is probably too small for rasboras. They are tiny - I had 6 now 5 so I’m worried that there aren’t enough for them to feel safe, even though the ones I have left are bold little chaps! I can’t wait to get a bigger tank and have them schooling together as they should be. Thanks for your advice. I do think perhaps it was failed moults and not acclimating them enough that could be the issue I just hope they others will be ok.

 

[Goldie Prawn]

My first impression is that KH 5 and pH 6.8 aren't really compatible without some serious CO2 injection. Something sounds off.

Should I turn down my water bubbles? I don’t understand KH in relation to PH and CO2. I added an ocean rock and seashell which is what I believe has raised the KH. The PH was extremely low initially too. (Under 6 below the range of my api test kit). My tap water PH is around 7.6 but something keeps making it drop in the tank (but thankfully it now stays at 6.8)

 

[Bradders]

The fish could just be a coincidence, it's not exactly rare to lose one or two when they are new, especially small and delicate fish but 20 Litres is also quite small for any fish.

Last week I added micro rasbora as our ph tends to be on the lower side and stays around 6.8. which I understand is within range for rasboras. They were mostly doing well, fun little things to watch and not shy. They seemed happy swimming around the tank and liked the powdered down food I have been feeding them. However, I have just found one dead 🥹 floating at the top of the tank.

On the fish aspect (I have zero experience with Shrimp) I think this should (as @louis_last says) be treated as a coincidence. I added 10 Microrasbora kubotai to my aquarium 6 months ago, and one died within a month, and the rest have survived happily and healthily since. There was no indication of a health issues - it just died. If you see deaths continue at a relatively steady pace, then start to be concerned.

 

[Bradders]

Also, could you please post a picture of the aquarium?

 

[Goldie Prawn]

Thank you for getting back to me. I hope it was just a coincidence, I would have thought if there was a major issue with parameters they would all be acting strangely but the others seem pretty happy and brave (they come and look at me when I’m looking in the tank!) Here is a picture of my tank pre adding fish or shrimp and more recently (my anubias are now out of the substrate and I have cleaned the algae). I’ve added a scallop shell and some aquatic rock which I believe is what is affecting the KH/GH. I also have added some crushed coral which I remove if PH climbs. Looking back at this, I see my moss balls have grown massively! I did have more plants but I’ve since removed them because of my initial ph/kh issues so they will be going in my new tank when I get it.

 

[Goldie Prawn]

 

[Bradders]

Thank you for getting back to me. I hope it was just a coincidence, I would have thought if there was a major issue with parameters they would all be acting strangely but the others seem pretty happy and brave (they come and look at me when I’m looking in the tank!)

Fish are more tolerant of water parameters than the Internet would have you believe. During recent changes/experiments, I have run my aquarium between 6 and 10dKH, 6 and 10dGH and PH between 6.9 and 8.0. Livebearers, Rasboras and Tetras did not bat an eyelid - but the water was very well-filtered, aerated and maintained. (Note that my tank is fish with a few very hardy plants and no shrimp, so I don't have to worry too much about the sensitivity to other life).

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I don’t understand KH in relation to PH and CO2.

It's the pH value at equilibrium between the level of atmospheric CO2 <"Global Monitoring Laboratory - Carbon Cycle Greenhouse Gases"> and the reserve (buffer) of (bi)carbonate ions in the tank. The bit that is important for us is that if you have more than about 3dKH in the water, at 424 ppm atmospheric CO2, the pH goes to ~pH8. The <"technical details"> are in the posts by @Andy Pierce and @hax47 in <"CO2 relationship to KH">.

I added an ocean rock and seashell which is what I believe has raised the KH.

So these are both made of limestone (CaCO3), which is insoluble in water, but soluble in weak acids. When the pH dips this limestone goes into solution as Ca++ (which we measure as dGH) and 2HCO3- (which we measure as dKH) ions. This is a negative feedback loop and when the water is hard and alkaline? Coral and <"shells don't dissolve">.

My tap water PH is around 7.6 but something keeps making it drop in the tank

You probably have sodium hydroxide (NaOH) addition to the tap water, it is a <"strong base"> so raises pH but doesn't add any buffering (all the Na+ and OH- ions are in solution).

I've never managed to find a good way to describe pH and buffering questions.

Because I specialise in <"cr*p analogies"> I'm going to use <"money"> for my pH and buffering analogy.

• When you have an unbuffered system you just have the money that is in your pocket to spend, and once it is spent you have no more money and can't buy any more plants.
• When you have some buffering after you've used up the money in your pocket you can get your debit card out and spend some of that buffer. How many plants you can buy depends on how deep your bank account is (how much of a buffer you have).

cheers Darrel

 

[Bradders]

Because I specialise in <"cr*p analogies"> ....

😀
How about this? Based on a 10dKH starting point.

1. When the Titanic sank, it did not have enough buffer (ineffective watertight doors), so it sank to the seabed (0dKH)
2. If the Titanic had a better buffer.(more effective watertight doors), it would only sink a little (6.5dKH).
3. If the Titanic had a top-notch buffer (totally effective watertight doors), it would not have sunk at all (10dKH).

Any better? Or just as crap? 😀

 

[Bradders]

I wrote that and instantly spotted my error! 😱

 

[Goldie Prawn]

Loving the analogies!!! So what do you recommend as a good buffer? Are the rock and shell a waste of time? Crushed coral made the ph begin to climb so I took that out. I feel so daft, I don’t get what I’m doing at all, but I am trying!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I feel so daft, I don’t get what I’m doing at all, but I am trying!

Honestly you are doing fine. Just leave the shell etc in and carry on, don't get too bogged down with water testing, just feed the shrimps a good diet and keep changing a small volume of water.

When the Titanic sank,

I think the Titanic / Iceberg equilibrium is unbuffered, basically the Titanic is afloat or its sunk, it is a binary situation. In the case of the Iceberg? always afloat, however the deck-chairs ...........

Loving the analogies!!!

For me Clive's <"Pump in a bucket"> is the Don Bradman of analogies, a summit that can never be scaled again.

I'm also really attached to the <"one-legged Irishman">, secret ingredient soup, buffets and <"the groat"> etc, but my personal favourite (of mine) is the "IT meeting scenario" in <"Flow rate.">, partially because, entirely hypothetically, it may have a follow up.

There are plenty more where that one came from, and some of them <"are better"> & <"Maq's experiment 23b">.

So what do you recommend as a good buffer? Are the rock and shell a waste of time?

Definitely not a waste of time, I usually recommend <"shell grit for chickens">, mainly because it is really cheap to buy.

....... Cherry Shrimps <"don't like soft water">, so that may have been the reason. If you want a cheap option to add a bit of hardness and alkalinity (1 : 1 dGH : dKH) then <"Oyster Shell Chick Grit"> (sold for cage birds etc.) works fine <"Pets at Home Chicken Oyster Shell Supplement 1kg | Pets At Home"> If the link stops working that was £2 for 1 kg ........

Crushed coral made the ph begin to climb so I took that out

They work by raising the carbonate hardness (dKH) and as the water becomes more alkaline? The pH will rise. It won't ever go above ~ 18 dGH, 18dKH & pH8, so it isn't a problem. Most of us who live in central southern, south east or eastern England have water that is fully saturated with calcium and carbonates from the limestone (<"often chalk">) aquifers that water is abstracted from <"Some handy facts about water">.

cheers Darrel