Weekly, Daily Ferts, what's the difference?

[Delapool]

I've found some fish do better with daily dosing as well. This might be as I would tend to do a water change and then load up back up the ferts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Soilwork]

When we talk about wide margins, overdosing and pump failures we are only ever addressing the macro nutrients which may well be less critical. We never talk about the micros.

Excessive nutrients do not cause algae directly but **in certain situations** they can damage plants which in turn leads to algae.

Generalisation is a killer in this hobby and what one can do in one tank doesn't necessarily mean it can be transferred automatically to another.

 

[Ed.Junior]

The wide ranges for plants are not limited to macros. Micros can be present in wide ranges as well, but in much smaller concentrations.

If 5ppm of iron would be toxic, it should be very easy to see. Just dose and see. That is not my experience, we do not need Iron in those concentrations, but I have not observed that, on the contrary, I have seen plants thriving in it. A couple studies are also available.

For the other traces it is much more delicate. Mn and Cu, for instance. Mn has its relationship with Iron, and Cu, well, plenty of issues when that reaches even 0.5 ppm

Of course, some plants, specially in the Lythraceae family, have a narrower margin. But they also stunt for several reasons.

If pinkish water is not an issue, you can add a lot of iron 🙂

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Soilwork]

Micro nutrient toxicity will be dependent on many other parameters not just the concentration. There are probably certain situations 5ppm iron is ok and others where it may not be for example, micro toxicity is much less of a problem in harder water and people in such regions might 'need' to dose a little more liberally than other to see a difference or address a deficiency.

I don't dose micros. I put them at the roots and let the plants get on with it. A 40 litre water change will give me 0.5mg of iron and more than enough of the other traces too when used with the soil. This is with strong light and lots of plants. My water is very soft though (40ppm TDS) and contains very little nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium etc so I have to add those back in.

 

[BarryH]

Some really interesting posts, thank you.

Back down at my level, I guess knowing what's coming out of my tap would be a good starting point, how do I find out what water I'm getting, I'm with Severn Trent in the Derbyshire area? The only testing kit I have is for the water in my tanks, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrates. Although there is also something in the API Test Kit for checking pH.

 

[Daveslaney]

If you go on severn trent website, click on the water quality link, put in your post code it gives you a basic water quality report things like GH nitrate mg/l etc in your water supply.

 

[BarryH]

Thanks for that Dave, it's frightening to see what's in the tapwater we drink.

Some of the names on the download I've never even heard of. Of all of the "ingredients" shown, Iron seems to stand out as a much larger percentage figure than any of the others listed.

 

[Soilwork]

Back down at my level, I guess knowing what's coming out of my tap would be a good starting point,

This is fundamental in my opinion. Not necessarily for growing plants but to help with troubleshooting and understanding in the event something does go wrong.

How much iron do you have?

 

[Daveslaney]

Thanks for that Dave, it's frightening to see what's in the tapwater we drink.

Some of the names on the download I've never even heard of. Of all of the "ingredients" shown, Iron seems to stand out as a much larger percentage figure than any of the others listed.

The figure for iron will be in ugl thats parts per billion.
Most of the others will be ppm.

 

[Daveslaney]

What about Ferrous Gluconate iron, As used in flourish iron.
Is there less likely to be a reaction caused using this?.

 

[Ed.Junior]

micro toxicity is much less of a problem in harder water and people in such regions might 'need' to dose a little more liberally than other to see a difference or address a deficiency.

Ok, let me be honest: outside of crazy situations (e.g. dropped a bottle of micros into the tank), I currently do not believe in micro toxicities in our tanks. I heard a lot about it, without substantial evidence.

But I am always open to learn new things 🙂

With this in mind, I would like to ask: what is the relationship between iron/traces and hard water? I am curious to know where this is coming from.

Besides the interactions between chelators and pH/KH, or the influences of higher levels of PO4 on hardness, I never heard anything similar.

Sincerely curious 😉


Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Ed.Junior]

What about Ferrous Gluconate iron, As used in flourish iron.
Is there less likely to be a reaction caused using this?.

Fe Gluconate is great, it provides iron at a low acquisition cost for the plants, but I am afraid that lots of people are just wasting it at high kH. The bond is so weak that it will break down in hours, not days.

People with higher kH will definitely enjoy better results with EDTA/DTPA.
That being said, there is no "damage" dosing it daily on said aquariums, as long you are only dosing Fe Gluconate. I have no idea what is inside of a Flourish Iron bottle.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[ian_m]

With this in mind, I would like to ask: what is the relationship between iron/traces and hard water? I am curious to know where this is coming from

Generally hard water is a higher pH ie alkaline and this cause the chelate to unchelate and release the iron, which may or may not stay in solution and be available to plants.

This is why some people say "I have hard water and have switched to xxxx type chelated iron" because it is more stable at higher pH.

Below is the standard graph everyone refers to. So the more expensive Fe DPTA and Fe EDDHA stay chelated in higher pH, that standard Fe EDTA

 

[Ed.Junior]

Generally hard water is a higher pH ie alkaline and this cause the chelate to unchelate and release the iron, which may or may not stay in solution and be available to plants.

This is why some people say "I have hard water and have switched to xxxx type chelated iron" because it is more stable at higher pH.

Below is the standard graph everyone refers to. So the more expensive Fe DPTA and Fe EDDHA stay chelated in higher pH, that standard Fe EDTA
View attachment 104458

Thanks for the answer Ian, but is not my question 🙂

As I already mentioned, I am fully aware of the interactions of the chelators themselves, as I already failed in the past when trying to dose Iron. Lesson learned. Important to notice that some bonds are sensitive to kH, but since high pH and kH usually walk hand in hand, thats fine.

I was specifically reffering to Iron/Traces, and not to the chelators. Soilwork mentioned that traces might not be available in hard water, and I got curious, specially about the traces. Since PO4 in high concentrations also interferes with hardness, I thought that maybe he was reffering to something I wasnt aware of.



Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Daveslaney]

Thanks Ed.
Florish iron uses Ferrous Gluconate for the iron.
No chelators.

 

[Soilwork]

Availability and toxicity are very different things. Availability yes I was referring to iron. Toxicity I was referring to low water hardness providing less protection against heavy metal toxicity in aquatic organisms.

Do I really have to provide links? Water hardness and metal toxicity is pretty well documented

Water hardness, pH, temperature, presence of humic substances.

I don't know what the toxicity levels are for the type of organisms we keep and that is precisely why I am more careful.

Issues were apparently arising for some when targeting a specific iron concentration using dry micro mixes as the concentration of the other metals was increasing to with each EI dose.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3184/095422911X13201685540769

I don't really want to get to involved in this again. My point was to explain that there are many ways to grow aquatic plants successfully and that even the results of identical practices can differ dramatically depending on where we get our water from 🙂

 

[Ed.Junior]

Chill, all good 🙂

The way you spoke I thought you were pointing at something new related to traces. Also, I am speaking only about plants, big difference.

We do disagree on some stuff, but who doesn't, come on 😉

Anyways, thanks for the reply.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Soilwork]

I'm good. I've lost shrimp and fish when dosing large amounts of dry traces in to my soft water tanks. I've had stunted plants and chlorosis, necrosis etc. At least three times i can remember that adding trace mixes in large quantities has caused problems.

I find it strange also that the Rotala butterfly calculator has (recently?) lowered its target dose of iron for EI using dry trace mixes from 0.5ppm to 0.2ppm and that GLA has altered its micro mix for PPS pro by a whole order of magnitude. (See in red)

http://blog.greenleafaquariums.com/2013/02/28/our-new-pps-pro-fertilizer-pack-just-mix-dose/

Happy plant keeping🙂

 

[Ed.Junior]

GLA sells the salts but they are not responsible for PPS Pro. For Rotala, I will ask Fablau and Jason about this

Although Tom mentioned some values in his initial/famous post about EI, he never focused on the values, but rather on the method. "How much" is always an adaption.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[Soilwork]

I agree. I understand the relationship between PPS pro and GLA too but still seems odd the levels have been dropped significantly. Thanks, it would be interesting to find out why the change was made.