Trying to stop the stunted growth in moderate/hard-difficulty plants

[eminor]

Hello, i decided to make a new journal, I can't continue the other one because the tank had a leak, I've been running the new one for about 4 months, I used estimative index which was a nightmare, I tried lean dosing KNO3, which increased stunted growth, and since near 2 months I've been using urea with osmocote, there is less stunted growth.

I'll make a list of all the parameters to get a better picture of that tank :

• Tank is 30 gallon + 4 gallons with the filter
• Light is 2* t5 24w 438mm + 1* superfish retroled 10w, Photoperiod is 7 hours, light is medium I think
• I use RO water (7-8 ppm) I add 30 ppm Cacl2 + 10 ppm Mgso4 which gets around 6 dGH, KH is 0, the temperature is around 25-26°c/78°F
• In the bottom glass I used 120 grams of tetra initial sticks, the substrate is tetra active substrate which is baked clay, I don't know about the CEC, but all I can say is that tetra initial sticks are not enough to grow healthy plant
• I use a Tetra EX 1200 plus filter, which is 10* turnover
• I use 24/7 CO2 with inline diffuser, the drop is always green, I have unlimited co2 fire extinguisher
• I use osmocote 22-7-14 + micro, nitrogen form is 19% Urea, 1+ ammonia, seems to be no leak, TDS is always near 240 PPM
• 1 have 6 cories, red cherry shrimps and 1 bristlenose pleco, that's why I can't lower GH
• I dose 2.26 N of urea (0.3 a day) 0.22 PO4 (0.03 a day), 5 PPM K2SO4 weekly, 3 times easylife profito per week to reach around 0.1 ppm DTPA Iron
• 20 liters water change weekly

Global picture of the current state of the tank



Filter I use :



Lily pipe outflow, little surface agitation



back t5 used with retroled on the back of the aquarium pointing downward


Front t5 bulb


Echinodorus baheri which grow better since I dose urea, could be the osmocote tough



Blyxa japonica is kind of okay, I still don't know how people grow massive bush of it though, maybe need some time ?



Here's a plant I don't understand, supposed to be easy, damn she's slower than cryptocoryne, and sensitive to algae, hard to not get staghorn on it... the growth you see is 4 months, still don't know why...


Past bba attack, seems better now



Here's stunted growth that its kind of new because before dosing urea/osmocote plant was stunted and developed side new growth, now they stunt and continue to grow in normal form as you can see (left stem of pogostemon erectus)



Another weird thing is that some stem looks damn healthy when other are kind of okay



Here's the nemesis Ammania golden, the stem is 3-4 week old, growth is really slow, don't know why either, drop checker is near and really green



about a week ago in added Rotala walichii, it's okay so far, not stunted I think



Do you know which kind of vallisneria it is ? i know it's supposed to be a background plant but I use it to make the tank look deeper, kind of



Thanks for reading, hopes you'll like that journal, I'll keep that one updated

 

[Guest]

easylife profito

This fertiliser is sold as "an all-in-one, universal plant food which is suitable for all water plants in aquaria." However, I don't think it contains nitrogen or phosphate. Which if true is a pretty serious omission for an all in one plant food, and could be the reason for stunted plant growth. Perhaps try something like TNC Complete or Tropica Specialised which has all micro and macro nutrients plants need.

 

[eminor]

This fertiliser is sold as "an all-in-one, universal plant food which is suitable for all water plants in aquaria." However, I don't think it contains nitrogen or phosphate. Which if true is a pretty serious omission for an all in one plant food. Perhaps try something like TNC Complete which has all micro and macro nutrients plants need.

Yes i use it as micro only, i dose urea dry to be certain that urea stay in that form, I also dose KH2PO4 daily. I kind of prefer to make macro myself, I would like micro too but it cost way too much in France

 

[Guest]

Okay, thought it worth mentioning anyway, if only to point out another potentially mis-sold product. Could also be a CO2 issue. Perhaps flow and distribution isn't quite optimised. Your drop checker is nice and green, but perhaps not lime green, difficult to tell. Maybe try injecting more CO2 till you get a lime green drop checker or use a pH probe to check for a 1 unit drop. Obviously, if you have critters exercise caution. Stauro (the plant you don't quite understand) can be a bit temperamental, but if you want it to carpet getting your CO2 right is key.

 

[xZaiox]

Hi,
I'm not a big fan of EI dosing either, I've gotten on much better with leaner regimes. That being said, your PO4 dosing seems quite low. It could be worth trying somewhere between 1-2ppm of PO4 weekly, while keeping your N and K dosing the same. I would also allow more time, tanks take a while to become microbially balanced and truly stable/mature. Your tank is looking nice overall, so I think you're doing a thing or two right 😉

 

[eminor]

Okay, thought it worth mentioning anyway, if only to point out another potentially mis-sold product. Could also be a CO2 issue. Perhaps flow and distribution isn't quite optimised. Your drop checker is nice and green, but perhaps not lime green, difficult to tell. Maybe try injecting more CO2 till you get a lime green drop checker or use a pH probe to check for a 1 unit drop. Obviously, if you have critters exercise caution. Stauro (the plant you don't quite understand) can be a bit temperamental, but if you want it to carpet getting your CO2 right is key.

I can go a bit further with co2, i'll try, the flow is everywhere, not the same velocity everywhere though. It's been a few years of trying, it's a slow path for me, still can't grow difficult plants but there is some progress, i can grow ammonia gracilis, it wasn't possible with KNO3 for me, tuberculatum will be back in few weeks, we'll see

Hi,
I'm not a big fan of EI dosing either, I've gotten on much better with leaner regimes. That being said, your PO4 dosing seems quite low. It could be worth trying somewhere between 1-2ppm of PO4 weekly, while keeping your N and K dosing the same. I would also allow more time, tanks take a while to become microbially balanced and truly stable/mature. Your tank is looking nice overall, so I think you're doing a thing or two right 😉

I could try but I'm afraid with accumulation, I only change 15-20 liters a week, can't do a lot more

 

[xZaiox]

I could try but I'm afraid with accumulation, I only change 15-20 liters a week, can't do a lot more

Ahh sorry, I only just saw that part. Hmm I wonder if maybe @Happi or @plantnoobdude could advise on the PO4 dosing?

 

[Guest]

Looks like you might be falling between two stools. Perhaps consider what your aims and objectives are and formulate a cohesive strategy

 

[eminor]

Looks like you might be falling between two stools. Perhaps consider what your aims and objectives are and formulate a cohesive strategy

The more I read and experiment the more I'm pretty sure the key is in the ratio between elements, the Pogostemon erectus try to tell me something that I can't read yet. If I want boost po4, i need to make a decision and either increase water change or keep lean dosing. I don't want to add nutrients, I don't believe in high nutrients to be the solution anymore, neither co2

 

[Guest]

the Pogostemon erectus try to tell me something that I can't read yet.

I found it undemanding. Just requires good fertz and co2. But whatever your objective frequent and fairly substantial water changes are often key to aquarium and critter health

 

[eminor]

I found it undemanding. Just requires good fertz and co2. But whatever your objective frequent and fairly substantial water changes are often key to aquarium and critter health

I remember my father growing it with low co2, it was huge, you might have a skill I haven't yet =)

She stunts easily in KH 0 which is supposed to be easier, my objective is simple but need master skill, i want a tank with lots of different plant without stunted growth

 

[Guest]

Then you’re looking for a panacea. EI with frequent and substantial water changes is probably as close as it gets. Then you can concentrate on what’s really important, optimising CO2 flow and distribution.

 

[SirBuce]

Your tank actually looks good (rather 'clean', without much significant issues) but the plants have stunted growth - the most straight forward indication from all these is that you are having some sort of deficiency.

+1 on giving EI a try - give your tank a 'full EI' treatment for 2 weeks and observe. Speaking this from a limited experience here ha (if you fancy to read some convoluted details see my My First Aquascape - Red Cherry Jungle (30L)), it definitely showed improvement in my case.

I also think that you are on the low side of bioload/livestock, this can easily contribute the nutrition deficiency for your plants.

WC wise, do you have a handy electrical/automatic gravel cleaner/syphon? I use it for the rather small tanks (~100L, 55L) WC (especially for frequent WC during the first few weeks when setting them up), and I always think I am glad I got one ha.

 

[eminor]

Your tank actually looks good (rather 'clean', without much significant issues) but the plants have stunted growth - the most straight forward indication from all these is that you are having some sort of deficiency.

+1 on giving EI a try - give your tank a 'full EI' treatment for 2 weeks and observe. Speaking this from a limited experience here ha (if you fancy to read some convoluted details see my My First Aquascape - Red Cherry Jungle (30L)), it definitely showed improvement in my case.

I also think that you are on the low side of bioload/livestock, this can easily contribute the nutrition deficiency for your plants.

WC wise, do you have a handy electrical/automatic gravel cleaner/syphon? I use it for the rather small tanks (~100L, 55L) WC (especially for frequent WC during the first few weeks when setting them up), and I always think I am glad I got one ha.

Thanks, i tried EI for years, I never managed to grow sensitives plants, they just stunt, KNO3 alone is a nightmare for them in my case. Since I dose prilled dry urea, some plants might stunt but they continue to grow without sending side shoots. I used to believe it was CO2 because if was told to, I tried massive flow, perfect distribution around the tank, more than 2 pH drop co2, still get stunted growth.

That's why I believe lean dosing is the key along with nutrients ratio, I still have a farm tank at the club that use EI to get faster grow of easy plant, but once you start to want to grow advanced one, it gets tricky to me at least

 

[SirBuce]

Thanks, i tried EI for years, I never managed to grow sensitives plants, they just stunt, KNO3 alone is a nightmare for them in my case. Since I dose prilled dry urea, some plants might stunt but they continue to grow without sending side shoots. I used to believe it was CO2 because if was told to, I tried massive flow, perfect distribution around the tank, more than 2 pH drop co2, still get stunted growth.

That's why I believe lean dosing is the key along with nutrients ratio, I still have a farm tank at the club that use EI to get faster grow of easy plant, but once you start to want to grow advanced one, it gets tricky to me at least

There is just so much to learn/understand in this hobby ha - wish you the best luck on figuring out a way to improve the situation. And somehow I am also facing an expected stunted growth my plants in my newly tank (quite mild symptoms per se, but I didn't expect that at all lol), I am considering to go 'full EI' soon if I don't see improvement soon.

'Farm tank' yes! I am thinking to keep a 30L cube for that purpose (I am still thinking what to do with my current 30L tank vs my new/empty 30L tank).

 

[eminor]

There is just so much to learn/understand in this hobby ha - wish you the best luck on figuring out a way to improve the situation aha. And somehow I am also facing an expected stunted growth my plants in my newly tank (quite mild symptoms per se, but I didn't expect that at all lol), I am considering to go 'full EI' soon if I don't see improvement soon.

'Farm tank' yes! I am thinking to keep a 30L cube for that purpose (I am still thinking what to do with my current 30L tank vs my new/empty 30L tank).

Never could reduce stunted growth with EI, as I said, I truly believe ratio between salts play a big part, if you look Kristel Book, you'll see that sensitive plant usually grow in full sunlight, really low amount of nutrients. I don't think i saw a single plant in the book that grow in EI conditions.

Without lean dosing topic and expert I would still be in EI trying to figure how I can improve my CO2, I still do though but not that much.

 

[SirBuce]

Never could reduce stunted growth with EI, as I said, I truly believe ratio between salts play a big part, if you look Kristel Book, you'll see that sensitive plant usually grow in full sunlight, really low amount of nutrients. I don't think i saw a single plant in the book that grow in EI conditions.

Without lean dosing topic and expert I would still be in EI trying to figure how I can improve my CO2, I still do though but not that much.

I take a note here you say that "Never could reduce stunted growth with EI" - and you have been using RO water right? You have a more controlled environment for sure ha.

For my case, 'full EI' for 2 weeks gave me (surprising) improvement for my tank (and prior to that I was not really dosing fert for nearly 2 months). It was a 'last resort' sort of attempt anyway, as it was my first aquascape tank and I thought there is no harm to try it out ha (I worried for the livestock but ended up ok, 2/3 shrimps dead due to changed parameters no big deal). So what I learnt from my case, is that my tap is rather soft (70 TDS with minimal trace minerals according water report), and I certainly needs to fert accordingly ha (otherwise my plants will suffer from deficiency long term).

What is the pH of your tank? Or do you use any algaecide/conditioner?

Because, per the (mild) stunted growth observed in my newly setup tank, I didn't dose fert in the first 2 weeks (worry about algae aha) and I was doing Tetra Algumin (preemptively trying to avoid algae lol), and with combination the aquasoil I used - I see no Algae in the tank in this 3rd week timepoint, and somehow my cycling has been slowed down since 2nd week - only then I noticed I have a pH near 5.2 in the tank (I raise the pH up to around 6 with some sodium bicarbinate) and I immediately stopped dosing the algaecide too aha.

 

[eminor]

I take a note here you say that "Never could reduce stunted growth with EI" - and you have been using RO water right? You have a more controlled environment for sure ha.

i've used tap water for the most part with EI, tried almost everything with EI, inert, aquasoil, etc. I used RO too, plant where growing crazy fast, still stunted for sensitive though

For my case, 'full EI' for 2 weeks gave me (surprising) improvement for my tank (and prior to that I was not really dosing fert for nearly 2 months). It was a 'last resort' sort of attempt anyway, as it was my first aquascape tank and I thought there is no harm to try it out ha (I worried for the livestock but ended up ok, 2/3 shrimps dead due to changed parameters no big deal). So what I learnt from my case, is that my tap is rather soft (70 TDS with minimal trace minerals according water report), and I certainly needs to fert accordingly ha (otherwise my plants will suffer from deficiency long term).

Your water is rather soft yes, mine is 240 ppm out of tap, 8 with RO

What is the pH of your tank? Or do you use any algaecide/conditioner?

I don't even know but since it's RO without any KH, I suppose 6-6.5, I don't use any conditioner or algacide

Because, per the (mild) stunted growth observed in my newly setup tank, I didn't dose fert in the first 2 weeks (worry about algae aha) and I was doing Tetra Algumin (preemptively trying to avoid algae lol), and with combination the aquasoil I used - I see no Algae in the tank in this 3rd week timepoint, and somehow my cycling has been slowed down since 2nd week - only then I noticed I have a pH near 5.2 in the tank (I raise the pH up to around 6 with some sodium bicarbinate) and I immediately stopped dosing the algaecide too aha.

I always saw that new setup tank are kind of immune to algae for some weeks. I think I read that algaecide hurts plant too so I avoid it, It also add a variable to the stunted cause.
5.2 pH is not that low, fish use to live in 3.5-4 in wild I think

 

[erwin123]

• I use RO water (7-8 ppm) I add 30 ppm Cacl2 + 10 ppm Mgso4 which gets around 6 dGH, KH is 0, the temperature is around 25-26°c/78°F
• I use osmocote 22-7-14 + micro, nitrogen form is 19% Urea, 1+ ammonia, seems to be no leak, TDS is always near 240 PPM

Your tank is nice and green. Unless you really want to grow A.Pedicatella in that tank, you probably don't need to change anything.

My tank TDS is about 120ppm and my water has gH of 6.

If your gH is 6, kH is 0 and your TDS is 240ppm, it suggests you are adding a lot of stuff to the water column. A. Pedicatella has a reputation for preferring leaner dosing (I'm still waiting for someone to start a journal here growing A. Pedicatella with full EI but no one has done so yet).

 

[eminor]

Your tank is nice and green. Unless you really want to grow A.Pedicatella in that tank, you probably don't need to change anything.

My tank TDS is about 120ppm and my water has gH of 6.

If your gH is 6, kH is 0 and your TDS is 240ppm, it suggests you are adding a lot of stuff to the water column. A. Pedicatella has a reputation for preferring leaner dosing (I'm still waiting for someone to start a journal here growing A. Pedicatella with full EI but no one has done so yet).

might be accumulation i only change 20 liters sometimes every 15 days