The Nymph's Spring (EA900)

[shangman]

With your lovely layered planting that's going to get thicker, plus the apistogramma in the lower areas, you might not need to think of normal top dwelling fish. I'm a huge pencilfish fan but it's a real risk to keep them in an open top. The same goes for any top dwelling species as they tend to have evolved to leap when spooked rather than dive for cover.
I think that if you got a traditional middle swimming tetra or similar fish, like black phantom tetras, then the vegetation and the apisto's would push them more to the upper waters. I know tetras aren't as exciting as rainbowfish or killi's but they are harmonious and generally quiet, plus interesting when the males spar. My mindset for fish is perhaps different to others/most, I'm a less is more and like to keep things kinda similar in local, at least down to continent, plus I like quieter fish rather than those hyper active species which I find distracting (although great if activity is what you are after).

So my tip is to not be constrained by traditional categories of fish. Try to think what you want the species to bring into the tank, like if all your other fish are quiet then adding a really active species probably won't impress them much and you lose a lot of their behaviour. Bright and colourful doesn't always mean exciting, and common and bland isn't always boring.

I know that's probably the least helpful post when asking for fish ideas but from my time selling fish I know that often people had buyer regret when what they picked just didn't fit in with their tank or what they wanted to achieve. Consider less species but more of them. Your dwarf rainbows would be a nice colourful addition but even species like silver tip tetra can look and act amazing on mass.

Thank-you for this very thoughtful reply, it's not unhelpful at all. Have you found that boisterous top-middle fish like rainbows can scare other fish? I find it very interesting because I found that when I added my cardinal tetras all of the other fish (apistos, otos and especially kuhlis) became much more bold and come out a lot more. I definitely don't want the rest of my fish to be spooked, I didn't realise that that was a possibility with something like a threadfin rainbow group. I also don't want any new fish to not be happy either! The first thing I'm doing before buying any new types of fish in this tank is to increase the numbers of what I already have to see what changes that brings about and what space is filled (or not filled), though atm nothing uses the top third which is why I was interested in hearing what people think, and if there was a fish that would use that area more.

I think I am a quirky fish keeper, I love a quirky fish with lots of personality, it's why the dwarf cichlids are my absolute favourite. It's also why I completely broke the same-continent rule early-on when I started fishkeeping last year - didn't understand stocking at all - and so got some kuhlis (the way they wiggle around is just so amusing), which rather doomed this tank to never match properly, so I'm not quite as bothered by it as long as the fish aren't upset by each other. I am planning a blackwater SA tank for my living room for next year though, properly kosher.

I wasn't the biggest fan of tetras in aquariums until very recently. They always look so incredible in films of them in the wild in enormous fabulous groups, (I am actually currently planning a to paint a mural in my hallway with huge schools of them), but in tanks alone they didn't appeal that much. However... I have found that my cardinals (from an acquaintance who was giving up the hobby) have really thrived in the new tank, are so much happier than in the temporary 60L and do form an interesting dynamic group, constantly making different shapes. I was planning on getting a few more of them, though they'll probably go and live in the blackwater to enjoy rooty brown heaven next year. And they do seem to make the other fish less shy, I was hoping that the rainbows would do that too, with fancy wiggly fins on top.

Won't get any pencils, I'll keep them on the list for a future covered tank! One day I WILL have some hockeysticks!! Another very amusing fish.

 

[mort]

Praecox rainbows are not much of a problem for the average, even timid, community fish ime but there are some species like danios that are frantic swimmers and it's this hyper activity that I've seen change the behaviour in shyer species. As an example I added danio choprae to my pencilfish tank when I started it. I had ten pencilfish and ten danios, so not massive groups but ok sized ones. The danios were boisterous and really kept the beckfords pencils, which are quite a bold species, really subdued and it wasn't until I removed the danios to a tank on their own about 2 years later that I actually got to see the pencilfish behaviour. I've seen this behaviour with dozens of other combinations with even peaceful species like zebra danios who aren't interested in other fish at all but their constant activity has thrown the other fish off. It can sometimes work the other way bringing out more activity in the other fish but I think its more often slightly negative rather than positive, and you have cardinals already which are a more timid species.
It's really just my personal preference tbh and mixing species can be really successful but I probably look for different behaviours due to my experience with particular fish that I know pretty well.

I suppose if I had to give a rule for what I'm trying to say is that if you go to the shop and the fish are constantly swimming darting from place to place in a random type fashion then they might bother more timid fish, zebra danios and some barbs are examples of this. If the fish are swimming but in a slower more methodical manner then they will probably be fine, most tetra, rasbora etc are like this. The threadfin rainbows are a good example of the slower swimmers which would be a nice addition.

 

[Gill]

There is another Option for you - the smaller halfbeaks - Platinum Red Tailed ones. Small and stay at the surface all the time looking for something to eat.
I have kept them in Open top tanks many times. From nano to large, and don't remember ever finding any had jumped.
I used to feed mine whatever the fish get, with the addition of a few live treats and chicken breasts. The Females went nuts for shredded chicken breast and grew quickly on that. I tried fruit flies with them and they also liked them. adn they are an interesting live food to grow.

 

[mort]

I was going to recommend half beaks as they are really interesting species but they have the reputation of being really jumpy. The only ones I've ever kept were in tanks with lids because of this rep, so it's interesting to here Gill's experience.

 

[shangman]

Praecox rainbows are not much of a problem for the average, even timid, community fish ime but there are some species like danios that are frantic swimmers and it's this hyper activity that I've seen change the behaviour in shyer species. As an example I added danio choprae to my pencilfish tank when I started it. I had ten pencilfish and ten danios, so not massive groups but ok sized ones. The danios were boisterous and really kept the beckfords pencils, which are quite a bold species, really subdued and it wasn't until I removed the danios to a tank on their own about 2 years later that I actually got to see the pencilfish behaviour. I've seen this behaviour with dozens of other combinations with even peaceful species like zebra danios who aren't interested in other fish at all but their constant activity has thrown the other fish off. It can sometimes work the other way bringing out more activity in the other fish but I think its more often slightly negative rather than positive, and you have cardinals already which are a more timid species.
It's really just my personal preference tbh and mixing species can be really successful but I probably look for different behaviours due to my experience with particular fish that I know pretty well.

I suppose if I had to give a rule for what I'm trying to say is that if you go to the shop and the fish are constantly swimming darting from place to place in a random type fashion then they might bother more timid fish, zebra danios and some barbs are examples of this. If the fish are swimming but in a slower more methodical manner then they will probably be fine, most tetra, rasbora etc are like this. The threadfin rainbows are a good example of the slower swimmers which would be a nice addition.

That's very interesting to hear about the danios, I've heard that barbs can be really boisterous like that, I didn't know that other little fish have that fast activity. Whatever fish I buy I would really like to see it before I buy it, I have bought some fish online but usually nothing new, just to up the stock I already have. I'll pay more attention to that now, looking at my tank today I did actually think what you said is very true - all the fish I keep right now are a litle shy and sweet and keep themselves to themselves, there is a peacefulness about it which I don't want to disrupt. I think the rainbows could really work, all of them are lovely, I was googling them after our chats and found 2 forum posts of people describing the threadfins as like butterflies in the tank which sounds super lovely. The praecox rainbwos are also amazing though, I wish there was a shop around here that had them both so I could compare and see which would fit more into the vibe!

It's great to hear about your experiences with customers and what advice you'd give after being in the trade, I love hearing that insider knowledge!!

There is another Option for you - the smaller halfbeaks - Platinum Red Tailed ones. Small and stay at the surface all the time looking for something to eat.
I have kept them in Open top tanks many times. From nano to large, and don't remember ever finding any had jumped.
I used to feed mine whatever the fish get, with the addition of a few live treats and chicken breasts. The Females went nuts for shredded chicken breast and grew quickly on that. I tried fruit flies with them and they also liked them. adn they are an interesting live food to grow.

They would be incredible to keep, those top-water fish are so fascinating.. as a kid my favourite fish at the shops were the hatchet fish, but I always thought these types would always jump (which is such a shame because they'd be so interesting to watch from above too). I can't believe you could feed them bits of chicken! Have you ever found any particular tips to help fish feel comfortable enough not to jump in an open top? I've had it happen a few times to me in my lowtech, although I think it was really down to the fish needing to be in a bigger tank/or the tank was crowded when my apisto had babies/or they were very new fish and the waterline was too high for that, there's always been a reason for some discomfort I have found so far. But also I haven't gone for fish that are known for jumping at all! So I know some just love to jump as part of their behaviour.

Thank you for throwing out all these great ideas, they're all going on my "must keep in the future" list, if they don't go in this tank, they'll certainly find their way to me at some point!

 

[shangman]

Ok so listen guys, something in the tank is definitely amiss, I noticed today that the rotala has suddenly started to stunt at the tops - it had been growing fine and very green before. Also my new monte carlo is really melting, which is all over the tank (though at the bottom mostly), and my bolbitis looks a little dodgy. I think it's everything looking a bit dodgy minus one little area where the outlet hits so I didn't quite realise cos that bit was nice.

Things have generally been fine so far before this - everything is growing, though some things (buces and schismatoglotis) had melted some leaves. Some things are looking really good like the mosses, and things do seem to have lots of shoots. The stems were growing more too, more big and green (50% light atm so no nice colours yet), and the echinodorus grew shedloads of leaves.

I noticed 2 days ago that the bubble counter needed the fluid readding, and then I reset my bubble counter after to what I thought it was. But I've just rechecked it and realised that the needle valve adjuster actually makes very little difference to the amount of bubbles coming out, I can turn it off but it doesn't really go about 1-2 bubbles per second. My drop chcker was yellow, but is right in the stream of the outlet, and now I've moved it to the back it's now blue.

I did think it was flow at first, but the change in growth has been quite a sudden downturn. The CO2 bottle isn't empty I don't think, it's still hovering over 750 or so.

Any ideas? Any pics needed?

Edit:
I pulled the solenoid plug out and plugged it in again and now the needlevalve works again, weirdly. So am back to a higher amount of CO2 going in, will check back tomorrow to see if it is green at lights on or if there are more problems. I wonder if I just knocked it somehow.

 

[Gill]

They would be incredible to keep, those top-water fish are so fascinating.. as a kid my favourite fish at the shops were the hatchet fish, but I always thought these types would always jump (which is such a shame because they'd be so interesting to watch from above too). I can't believe you could feed them bits of chicken! Have you ever found any particular tips to help fish feel comfortable enough not to jump in an open top? I've had it happen a few times to me in my lowtech, although I think it was really down to the fish needing to be in a bigger tank/or the tank was crowded when my apisto had babies/or they were very new fish and the waterline was too high for that, there's always been a reason for some discomfort I have found so far. But also I haven't gone for fish that are known for jumping at all! So I know some just love to jump as part of their behaviour.

I always have some form of floating plants for them to swim amongst so that they feel secure.

 

[shangman]

Showed my dad what was wrong with the co2, and in doing that pulled the plug, and after I did that the needle valve works fine! I am so useless at this stuff, but I'm hoping that this means I can retune it tomorrow morning to get to the right amount of co2 again. Also going to pay more attention to flow, I wonder if I need to swap the back filter over.

Also changed the water which is now VERY BROWN from my rarely used waterbutt as all the others are low, it had a truly insane amount of live food in it, like £30 in a shop easy, the tetras went mad for it. But sadly Mr Apisto want that interested, because he are one of my largest new black shrimps ffs!! He hunted it on the moss, the apistos do seem to like hunting about for food in crevices! I wanted to try keeping some nicely coloured ones and culls have been living ok in the 60l with them before so I thought it would be ok, alas not.
I guess they will just eat most of these nice ones cos I don't have another spare tank, and I'll end up putting my cull shrimp in there too for the apistos to enjoy and hopefully some do well cos they're more invisible, I really like having that proper range of creatures together from tiny to big (ish).

 

[RPackman]

I’m glad you sorted out your CO2. Hopefully the plants will bounce back.

Shame about your shrimp though!

 

[shangman]

I always have some form of floating plants for them to swim amongst so that they feel secure.

Definitely need those! I was thinking for my next pond tank which will be blackwater, will have a lot of riparium wabi kusa foliage, hopefully that inspires less jumpers.

I’m glad you sorted out your CO2. Hopefully the plants will bounce back.

Shame about your shrimp though!

Thanks, fingers crossed it is actually fixed, I'm not exactly sure what changed to make things go odd... Will find out tomorrow if it's properly fixed though, I think it looked promising.

It's a big shame, I really like the black shrimp! I did think this morning there were less in their usual spot at the top of the tank in the moss than usual but didn't think about it, I think I will try to net out any I find tomorrow but I wonder if he's spent the past few days hunting them all!! 😭

 

[mort]

Threadfin rainbows are very tricky to display in a lfs as they never look their best. They are really ugly ducklings that only become stunning when settled in a tank with a decent group. I'd say they are one for the more discerning aquarist that understands their potential, a bit loke diamond tetras. Praecox on the other hand normally look good in any tank but aren't always the hardiest fish nowadays.

We had a group of I think 50 but might have been 100 threadfins come in one day and I was thinking of putting them in a display tank but someone came in and had the same thought and bought every single one. I never got to see the tank as I think it was the only time I saw that person but I think it would have been amazing judging by how they looked in a bare qt tank for the two weeks before sale.

 

[Wookii]

Threadfin rainbows are very tricky to display in a lfs as they never look their best. They are really ugly ducklings that only become stunning when settled in a tank with a decent group. I'd say they are one for the more discerning aquarist that understands their potential, a bit loke diamond tetras. Praecox on the other hand normally look good in any tank but aren't always the hardiest fish nowadays.

We had a group of I think 50 but might have been 100 threadfins come in one day and I was thinking of putting them in a display tank but someone came in and had the same thought and bought every single one. I never got to see the tank as I think it was the only time I saw that person but I think it would have been amazing judging by how they looked in a bare qt tank for the two weeks before sale.

What are Threadfins like for jumping @mort?

I’ve considered them in the past, but was never sure if their full adult size, some sites say 40mm some say 50mm, and I’m never sure if that includes their long fins or not?

 

[mort]

What are Threadfins like for jumping @mort?

I’ve considered them in the past, but was never sure if their full adult size, some sites say 40mm some say 50mm, and I’m never sure if that includes their long fins or not?

I've not had masses of experience with them but I don't think they are any more jumpy than your average midwater fish. They can be shy to begin with and I would have a gentle transition to darkness rather then just a on off light so not to spook them as they aren't the boldest fish.
I'd say the biggest issue with them is being out competed for food by fast feeders.

Size wise seriously fish suggested 30-40mm and I would say that's right, fishbase Iriatherina werneri summary page backs that up and I've not seen many over 3cm.

 

[shangman]

Threadfin rainbows are very tricky to display in a lfs as they never look their best. They are really ugly ducklings that only become stunning when settled in a tank with a decent group. I'd say they are one for the more discerning aquarist that understands their potential, a bit loke diamond tetras. Praecox on the other hand normally look good in any tank but aren't always the hardiest fish nowadays.

We had a group of I think 50 but might have been 100 threadfins come in one day and I was thinking of putting them in a display tank but someone came in and had the same thought and bought every single one. I never got to see the tank as I think it was the only time I saw that person but I think it would have been amazing judging by how they looked in a bare qt tank for the two weeks before sale.

I think I've heard this before, I've never seen them in any lfs and I wondered if that was why - nobody wants them as they don't look immediately perfect. Big shame, though maybe that insulates them from dodgy keepers well!

50 sounds amazing, I'd love to see that. I wish there were more display tanks featuring them on the internet, but there are hardly any at all. In a way I feel like that's another good reason to keep them - they seem very unappreciated. It's one of the things I wish we saw in aquascapes, a bigger variety of interesting fish. Of the videos I've watched them they look lovely, I like that their shape is longer and slimmer than the tetras too.

In a tank that's 900 x 50 x 45, how many would you stock? Would you consider it big enough? I was thinking about 15, partly because they seem to be £7 each! They do seem a bit smaller than I thought (those fins make them seem much larger in photos!), so maybe a few more is possible.

Also, slightly unrelated question but I thought I'd ask - I have 10 cardinals and I'd like to add 6 - 10 more to just make it a more robust school. I think they are just the bogstandard maas-farmed variety, and 2 have bent spines. I was planning on the new ones being wild cardinals as I thought they might be more robust stock, and if they bred they would help keep them healthier.. would love to hear your thoughts on that wild/farmed side and if it's something to really consider or not.

 

[Wookii]

I think I've heard this before, I've never seen them in any lfs and I wondered if that was why - nobody wants them as they don't look immediately perfect. Big shame, though maybe that insulates them from dodgy keepers well!

They’ve had them in my local MA, so worth checking if you have one locally.

 

[mort]

Threadfins are an easy fish to get hold of for any lfs and because they don't stock them it can actually work in your favour because if you get them specifically shipped in its easy to a good deal on price. I think 15 would be a great number but to complicate things more it's the sex ratio that's just as important as ideally you'd be looking at a 3:1 female/male ratio to get the best out of them. So I'd make sure any shop knows that before you order unless that ratio isn't as important for you.

Again I'm guessing but I don't think they are used more often because they really look their best when your nose is pressed against the glass, they don't really standout from a distance unlike a bright species like cardinals.

Wild caught cardinals are arguably better for the reasons you suggest. Tbh project Piaba meant that the cardinals I stocked were wild caught because of their buy a fish save a tree initiative. The wild caught still got deformed spines but normally due to the customers overfeeding their fish (big bellies can cause deformities but slightly plump is the sign of a healthy fish).

 

[shangman]

They’ve had them in my local MA, so worth checking if you have one locally.

Some people have all the luck! A very good excuse to visit all the shops though...

Threadfins are an easy fish to get hold of for any lfs and because they don't stock them it can actually work in your favour because if you get them specifically shipped in its easy to a good deal on price. I think 15 would be a great number but to complicate things more it's the sex ratio that's just as important as ideally you'd be looking at a 3:1 female/male ratio to get the best out of them. So I'd make sure any shop knows that before you order unless that ratio isn't as important for you.

Again I'm guessing but I don't think they are used more often because they really look their best when your nose is pressed against the glass, they don't really standout from a distance unlike a bright species like cardinals.

Wild caught cardinals are arguably better for the reasons you suggest. Tbh project Piaba meant that the cardinals I stocked were wild caught because of their buy a fish save a tree initiative. The wild caught still got deformed spines but normally due to the customers overfeeding their fish (big bellies can cause deformities but slightly plump is the sign of a healthy fish).

Oh that's very good to know about negotiating the price, I will see if I can barter a little. I do want to keep the sex ratio at the right number, maybe it's best to get 5 males 15 females (or at least ask). I've asked for good sex ratios before with sparkling gouramis for my dad's tank and they were like... no good luck! But the threadfins are a lot more obvious luckily.

I'm just reading about Project Piaba and it's amazing!!! Really fascinating to read, will definitely get the wilds and ask the shop about if they stock from there. My cardianls are a bit fat tbh, how often would you feed them? They've learnt to eat the sinking loach pellets which is very annoying, so greedy.

 

[mort]

My cardianls are a bit fat tbh, how often would you feed them?

Going by the last tank shot with them in there I think your already doing a great job. They look plump and healthy and not fat. They tend to lose the vibrancy on their tummies when they have pot bellies.

 

[shangman]

Going by the last tank shot with them in there I think your already doing a great job. They look plump and healthy and not fat. They tend to lose the vibrancy on their tummies when they have pot bellies.

Thank you! The pot belly description is a good shout, only have one like that, it must be the greediest of all!



An exciting little update - for the past few days Ms Apisto has been doing her breeding routine - go yellow and black, move about like a tactical helicopter and disappear into a hole under the wood most of the time. This morning I woke up and did my early-morning peek in the tank to see what's up, and found her right at the front by a crevice in the horn-like wood on the right with a load of hatching eggs! They were pink and white and wiggling a lot, it was amazing. Before I managed to snap a photo (which tbh would've been crap as it was very dark) she saw me looking and within a minute had moved them all into another little cave at the back of the wood out of sight. I'm very intrigued to see how this lot do in the new water, which is 50/50 rainwater/tap, and I wasn't sure if it would be possible for them to breed. Also not sure if they'll survive very long in an immature tank without lots of infusoria, but there are a lot of leaves in there already.

Speaking of leaves, the hands-down most popular food of my otos is these dried walnut leaves. Last year I ran out very quickly, so in the heatwave last week I picked lots more and dried them (very easy in that heat). One leaf lasts max a week (more like 3-4 days) until it's completely skeletonised, and it's a great way to get the otos to come to the front a lot. Pictured here is my "leopard oto" I got almost a year ago when I didn't know much, and only bought 2 to live with my 6 otos. One jumped out, and I only have this one left. I feel bad for the little fellow and would like to get some friends for him, but I don't know what it's latin name is to even try. It is more picky than normal otos, it only likes biofilm on wood and dried leaves, and seems to like a strong flow. I've never managed to get it to gain much weight, but it does seem much happier in this tank than my dad's 45l so hopefully it will now, it's eating a lot more and moving about a lot more too. It's longer and slimmer than a normal oto. Anyone got any ideas what it could be? They were £6 each so I assume not a super rare type.

 

[Conort2]

Anyone got any ideas what it could be?

Think it’s an oxyropsis, I’d say it’s pretty rare.

I’ve never seen one for sale, shame you only have the one as it’ll be difficult to source more. Price doesn’t always mean rare either, you can some really cool rare contaminants in South American wild caught shipments.

cheers