Substrate Leeching Ammonia

[John P Coates]

Hi Folks,

I am starting a brand new freshwater fish tank with plenty of plants. I have a Seneye monitor in the tank keeping an eye on pH, temperature, and NH3. The substrate is comprised of 2cm Tetra Complete Substrate topped by 1cm of natural gravel and then a 4cm layer of JBL Manado. The water is 100 litres RO with added minerals to set KH and GH. There is nothing else in the tank except an internal filter and heater.

Over a 24 hour period, free ammonia has risen to 0.046ppm. Fortunately, there are no fish in the tank. I have added a bacteria culture (JBL FilterStart). I wasn't expecting there to be any ammonia and I find it difficult to believe that it's coming from either the gravel or the Manado (fired or volcanic clay pellets). So, I suspect the Tetra Complete Substrate (TCS). I have read that other high nutrient substrates can exhibit the same behaviour. Although TCS states 'no added nitrates or phosphates', it would appear to be a source of NH3 when added to water. Perfect for fishless cycling.

I'll update this post from time to time.

JPC

 

[ian_m]

Couple issues here

You believe your tester
Most new substrates, especially man made from clay may leach ammonia to a certain degree.
Your filter starter in my opinion can produce ammonia as the bacteria die in their new low nutrient environment.
Just pop a few plants in and leave to take its natural course over next 6-8 weeks odd.

 

[John P Coates]

Couple issues here

You believe your tester
Most new substrates, especially man made from clay may leach ammonia to a certain degree.
Your filter starter in my opinion can produce ammonia as the bacteria die in their new low nutrient environment.
Just pop a few plants in and leave to take its natural course over next 6-8 weeks odd.

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I believe the tester at the moment until such time as someone explains why I should not. Or, until I do other tests that give different results. I do have test kits so I'll see what they come up with.

I had not appreciated that substrates made from clay would leach ammonia.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear earlier regarding the filter starter. I added this after the NH3 had already risen to 0.038. As the NH3 has continued to rise, it would suggest to me that the bacteria have not yet sufficiently increased in numbers to gobble up the NH3. That's hardly surprising after just 24 hours.

JPC

 

[kirk]

Ooooo good old test kits I keep crs and the only things I test is temperature of water im adding to the tank and tds with a tds pen. I like to dip litmus paper in the tank with the kids for fun sometimes. No I don't dip the kids in the tank. I used ada on the current set up and was advised that it leaches so it was planted an left for four weeks before I even put a low grade cherry in.

 

[ian_m]

Yes, I believe the tester at the moment until such time as someone explains why I should not.

If you were measuring just ammonia in pure water your tester would be accurate, however your tank (I hope) is not pure water. There are many other chemicals (natural and otherwise) that can interfere with the testers and give erroneous results. As these are unknown and variable quantities you can get variable misleading readings. You then get transfixed on these erroneous readings, the "Matrix effect", and basically head down the route to "cock up" your tank.

One to watch with the Seneye in particular is results are severely affected by the kH of your water (might only be very soft water) which makes it "a bit pants" as knowing the kH (of the tank) is one of the difficult to measure parameters (normally based around measuring the pH of the water ), thus you can't even reliably ascertain if your Seneye is or is not in a tank where the measurements can be considered to mean anything at all.....help help the Matrix has got me and I must know my kH to know my NH3....

In my opinion the Seneye is extremely good at transferring money from your wallet to someone else's (reliably measured at £100 last time I looked), though I suspect temperature reading should be OK.

The main indicator to watch, if you want to watch some indicator in your tank, is the drop checker. As this is isolated from the "unknown" tank water and is indicator in standard 4dkh, it can be quite accurate as has only blue, green or yellow values. So green (heading yellow) at lights on is what you need to get.

Another indicator to watch (over the longer term) is the thing called plants. If they look OK, no melting, no leaves falling off, no algae, good growth etc then they indicate all is well.

 

[kirk]

The main indicator to watch, if you want to watch some indicator in your tank, is the drop checker. As this is isolated from the "unknown" tank water and is indicator in standard 4dkh, it can be quite accurate as has only blue, green or yellow values. So green (heading yellow) at lights on is what you need to get.

Another indicator to watch (over the longer term) is the thing called plants. If they look OK, no melting, no leaves falling off, no algae, good growth etc then they indicate all is well.[/quote] I have these indicators too.

 

[ian_m]

These are the only indicators I look at

1. Green drop checker. (OK heading yellow, but not blue and fish are alive).

2. Pearling plants (and alive fish).

Sometimes I even....

Read the temperature, only as I often forget to turn heater back on at water change.

Watch the bubbles...

Check there is pressure in the FE. Notice the pen marks on the FE, weigh it when full, record on FE, 5.38Kg in my case, and when it gets down to 3.38Kg I know it is empty.

Sit back and watch the tank. Done.

 

[Vic]

I've been cycling my tank with ada amazonia which is known to leach ammonia. Talking to my colleagues from Spain that use this substrate they advised me to use seachem prime at water changes because not only clear the chloride bit also kills the ammonia.

I've done it and worked as a miracle. From 0.4to 0.1 after a week it raised again to 0.2 and in this water change amonia is completely gone.. So, prime in combination with plants is the best way I've found to fast cycle the tanks with substrates leaching ammonia.

Hope it helps

 

[John P Coates]

Hi Folks,

Firstly, I must apologize for not having got back to you all sooner. I was under the impression that this forum alerted people when new posts are submitted.

However, I am a tad perturbed by some of the comments. As such, I will, with a degree of reluctance, make my way to the exit.

JPC

 

[Maurits]

before you leave the building, yes you can believe your seneye, I have got similar issues like you, not only checked with a drip test but also in the lab and this assures me that the seneye is ok.

Not sure what ammonia has to do with KH ? new for me. KH and GH affects PH. Maybe you mean that ammonia with a PH below 7 isn't harmful over 7 it is.

to answer your question, yes the substrate is the cause. a lot of substrates, like knott, ada, tetra, colombo are all made in the same factory and they all will release ammonia till a certain degree over a lenght of time. As long as you can keep it below 0.5 it will not be that problematic. keep also an eye on your nitrite levels as this is something your seneye isn't measering but probably a bigger problem for your fish then your ammonia

 

[kirk]

, make my way to the exit. Nobody likes everything that they read, I've gone through the thread nothing unusual, all I can see is people trying to sway you from worrying about test and get the basics right, stick with it, I wasn't too pleased that people say you do not need lots of lighting to grow plants or test kits, I joined here thinking i needed stupid amount of light or my plants won't grow... ( some stores all they want want is your money and haven't got a clue) this place is non profiting just the members profit as in good advice for free. but thanks to people being strait to the point (ceg) I understand a lot more. Stick with us its great place. there's bargains too.

 

[James O]

I think John is just exiting this thread as he was posting in his other one about the 30ppm CO2 ideal at 9:55pm

Not sure what comments 'perturbed' (anxious, disturbed, uneasy or threw into confusion) you John? Other than some of your understanding/purchases being questioned. A quick search on tank cycling and one on the seneye will bring up all the info

Btw there are two options for thread watching. One is with alerts the other without (tbh I can't understand the point of the second option)