Stunted rotala green, CO2 already seems excessive - any ideas?

[xZaiox]

I hope you don’t mind me pointing out some issues I’m noticing,

Not at all! I'm more than happy to receive feedback to improve my tank, so thanks for helping 🙂

I strongly doubt this is a nutrient deficiency… since you’re dosing ei,

This was my logic too, or I had considered possibly my hard water is making is difficult for the plants to absorb nutrients? Idk if that's a thing... Anyway, your comment about manganese is interesting, I'm going to pick some up and test this out for myself.

Mg.

I dose 1 full teaspoon of magnesium 3x a week, I would doubt it's that surely?

 

[Hufsa]

Yeah, so multiple of plants seem to have discoloured new leaves that eventually colour up normally, I had assumed it was iron as well (I've made a post on ukaps about it), and added additional iron chelates to my dosing regime, but as you can see, the rotala still shows the discoloured growth - I was kind of assuming this is just how the new leaves form, but I'm now guessing that's wrong? Also note that they are in a flourite substrate, which from my understanding should contain iron?

I'm currently dosing 1/16 teaspoon of CSM+B, 1/32 teaspoon DTPA chelated Iron, and 1/16 teaspoon EDDHA chelated Iron, all 3x a week.

Im going to go with @plantnoobdude 's suggestion then, Manganese and/or Magnesium, although I would bet on the former because Magnesium should show mostly in older growth
Interestingly Iron will compete with Manganese I believe, so if your current Iron dosing is excessive, that might make a Manganese problem worse

I also didn't realise you had to occasionally fully replant them 😬 how often do you do this? What happens if you just trim them?

I do it quite often, but I grow mine in inert substrate and find they prefer this method (in my tank) because they dont have any nutrients at the roots to rely on.
If you just trim them always then for one thing you have a large bush of decaying and unhealthy plant mass rotting in your tank, but also eventually the plant will be almost all bad growth and might struggle to regrow from the shallow layer on the surface of the bush, if that makes sense.

 

[plantnoobdude]

I'm currently dosing 1/16 teaspoon of CSM+B, 1/32 teaspoon DTPA chelated Iron, and 1/16 teaspoon EDDHA chelated Iron, all 3x a week.

I dose 1 full teaspoon of magnesium 3x a week, I would doubt it's that surely?

Ppms please? Also I would strongly suggest that you making dosing solutions for the csmb… it will make sure you get an as even mix as possible in each dose, this stuff is meant to be mixed in thousands of litres of water over huge fields, a sixteenth of a teaspoon in an aquarium doesn’t always yield the same ppms of nutrients.

possibly my hard water is making is difficult for the plants to absorb nutrients?

that certainly is a thing, refer to mulders chart.

High availability of hard water ions (Ca, Mg, and co3 I believe) can inhibit the uptake of micro nutrients.

Anyway, your comment about manganese is interesting, I'm going to pick some up and test this out for myself

please make a solution in water with the salt as I suggested above, it will help you maintain dosing consistently. I would suggest Mn edta as it’ll stay stable longer than something such as MnSO4 which may precipitate quickly.

What happens if you just trim them?

the bottoms choke them selves out and become unhealthy, though this could be related to nutrients as well, some of it certainly has to do with poor husbandry however.

I'm now guessing that's wrong?

yes, the plant leaves should be fully coloured.

 

[xZaiox]

Ppms please?

I believe this is roughly 0.05ppm of FeEDDHA, 0.07ppm FeDTPA and probably about 0.12 FeEDTA in the CSM+B. Magnesium is roughly 2.8ppm. This is per dose, and these figures are all dosed 3x a week, so triple for the weekly dosage.

Also I would strongly suggest that you making dosing solutions for the csmb… it will make sure you get an as even mix as possible in each dose, this stuff is meant to be mixed in thousands of litres of water over huge fields, a sixteenth of a teaspoon in an aquarium doesn’t always yield the same ppms of nutrients.

Are you suggesting to buy all the micro fertilisers individually to make my own version of CSM+B?

that certainly is a thing, refer to mulders chart.
View attachment 192372
High availability of hard water ions (Ca, Mg, and co3 I believe) can inhibit the uptake of micro nutrients.

Interesting! Including about the iron and manganese potentially conflicting.

I would suggest Mn edta as it’ll stay stable longer than something such as MnSO4 which may precipitate quickly.

Do you have any suggestions for where to buy MnEDTA? I've been looking on aquaplantscare.uk but they've been out of stock of it for a long time now.

the bottoms choke them selves out and become unhealthy, though this could be related to nutrients as well, some of it certainly has to do with poor husbandry however.

Didn't know this, thanks for the info. I'll be replanting from now onwards.

yes, the plant leaves should be fully coloured.

Whoops in that case the rotala is doing much worse than I had originally thought.

If you just trim them always then for one thing you have a large bush of decaying and unhealthy plant mass rotting in your tank, but also eventually the plant will be almost all bad growth and might struggle to regrow from the shallow layer on the surface of the bush, if that makes sense.

Does "healthy" plant growth always become "bad growth" over time? I guess I had just assumed if the growth was healthy then it could be trimmed indefinitely - I accept that I'm wrong here, just seeking understanding

 

[Hufsa]

Do you have any suggestions for where to buy MnEDTA? I've been looking on aquaplantscare.uk but they've been out of stock of it for a long time now.

Solufeed Mn EDTA, this should last you the rest of your life 😅
(Edit) Dang it, didnt see this one is also out of stock

Ill leave the rest in the very capable hands of Plantnoobdude

 

[xZaiox]

Solufeed Mn EDTA, this should last you the rest of your life 😅
(Edit) Dang it, didnt see this one is also out of stock

Haha yeah, I had just checked that one too - I can't seem to find anywhere selling it.

 

[Hufsa]

As mentioned in the other thread, the 24/7 UV filter you run could be contributing to your micro issue

 

[xZaiox]

As mentioned in the other thread, the 24/7 UV filter you run could be contributing to your micro issue

I had actually previously thought that, and I decided to turn my UV off for like between 1-2 weeks, and saw no improvement in plant growth at all.
I would of thought that if this was the issue I would of had a rapid response by the plants? Or should I have left it off for longer?

 

[plantnoobdude]

I believe this is roughly 0.05ppm of FeEDDHA, 0.07ppm FeDTPA and probably about 0.12 FeEDTA in the CSM+B. Magnesium is roughly 2.8ppm. This is per dose, and these figures are all dosed 3x a week, so triple for the weekly dosage.

Are you suggesting to buy all the micro fertilisers individually to make my own version of CSM+B?

Interesting! Including about the iron and manganese potentially conflicting.

Do you have any suggestions for where to buy MnEDTA? I've been looking on aquaplantscare.uk but they've been out of stock of it for a long time now.

Didn't know this, thanks for the info. I'll be replanting from now onwards.

Whoops in that case the rotala is doing much worse than I had originally thought.

Does "healthy" plant growth always become "bad growth" over time? I guess I had just assumed if the growth was healthy then it could be trimmed indefinitely - I accept that I'm wrong here, just seeking understanding

You are dosing A LOT of iron, I strongly doubt the issue is due to that, I would suggest adding 0.3ppm Mn weekly. I would not redcommend this usually but due to your hard water and high Iron levels it may be needed.
I would also like to stress strongly again that I’d recommend you making dosing solutions for your aquarium. Any fluctuations can only exacerbate the issue.

Are you suggesting to buy all the micro fertilisers individually to make my own version of CSM+B?

No, just that I’d strongly recommend solutions for micro nutrients.

Do you have any suggestions for where to buy MnEDTA? I've been looking on aquaplantscare.uk but they've been out of stock of it for a long time now.

I bought mine from aqua plants care, I would suggest you look around or wait till it comes in stock.

Interesting! Including about the iron and manganese potentially conflicting.

yes, while you thought you were solving an iron deficiency, you very well may have been creating an induced manganese deficiency.

Didn't know this, thanks for the info. I'll be replanting from now onwards.

well, I’d recommend to do so at least every few months, rotala are very crowding tolerant though. So if it’s just a weekly/ biweekly trim then there is no need for replanting.

 

[xZaiox]

You are dosing A LOT of iron, I strongly doubt the issue is due to that, I would suggest adding 0.3ppm Mn weekly. I would not redcommend this usually but due to your hard water and high Iron levels it may be needed.

Yeah, I guess it just seemed like an iron deficiency to me, and I thought that maybe my hard water was making the iron difficult for the plants to use. I very well can buy into your manganese theory, and I'm going to be seeking it ASAP. I've emailed both aquaplantscare and solufeed to inquire about when their stock is back.

This is going to be a fun experiment for me - How quickly would you expect plants to react to the added manganese?

well, I’d recommend to do so at least every few months, rotala are very crowding tolerant though. So if it’s just a weekly/ biweekly trim then there is no need for replanting.

Thanks for the info - When you replant the tops, do you try to pull the bottom parts out with their roots? Or just cut the bottoms right next to the substrate? I'm torn between "pulling roots might chuck a bunch of stuff into the water column" and "leaving the roots is decaying matter".

 

[plantnoobdude]

Thanks for the info - When you replant the tops, do you try to pull the bottom parts out with their roots? Or just cut the bottoms right next to the substrate? I'm torn between "pulling roots might chuck a bunch of stuff into the water column" and "leaving the roots is decaying matter".

It depends how lazy I’m feeling, if I plan on doing a water change after then I’ll uproot stuff, other whose I’ll just trim to the substrate and replant a couple stems. I do water changes every few weeks, so I don’t always have the luxury to replant.

This is going to be a fun experiment for me - How quickly would you expect plants to react to the added manganese?

if manganese was truly limiting then results should be seen in a few days, @Hufsa should have some good photos of plant tips greening up in response to micro nutrients. Full effects might take a week or two, and for the plant to be fully healthy, maybe a month.

 

[xZaiox]

Big thanks to both of you @plantnoobdude and @Hufsa - I appreciate your time and input I've learned a good few things here and I'm looking forward to implementing the changes.

 

[_Maq_]

I strongly believe there are aquarium plants unable either take up or utilize/metabolize iron in conditions of high pH or alkalinity (bicarbonates). Whether Rotala rotundifolia belongs among them, I can't tell. I quickly evaluated it as a 'weed' and donated it as it grew like a weed in soft and acidic water. I believe that Rotala wallichii ranks among these plants, but high CO2, and especially strong iron chelates can possibly overcome this disability.

 

[Hufsa]

@Hufsa should have some good photos of plant tips greening up in response to micro nutrients. Full effects might take a week or two, and for the plant to be fully healthy, maybe a month.

Yes I happen to have had a micro and nutrient issue in my own tank 😅





These pics were taken only 5 days apart in my CO2 injected tank, as you can see the response varies depending on the plant species, fastest result on Heteranthera zosterifolia, medium on Hygrophila polysperma and small result on Tonina fluviatilis, the latter grows quite slowly.
All plants will recover in due course if I get the issue fixed, but some of the plants will take longer time than others (like Java ferns)

Rotala rotundifolia should respond with greener new growth within a week in a CO2 injected tank

 

[plantnoobdude]

Yes I happen to have had a micro and nutrient issue in my own tank 😅

Just a bit😆.
Anyway nice pictures that demonstrate the results OP should see providing manganese was limiting.

 

[xZaiox]

Thanks for those pics demonstrating a corrected micro deficiency @Hufsa - curiously, do you know which micro was deficient?

 

[Hufsa]

Thanks for those pics demonstrating a corrected micro deficiency @Hufsa - curiously, do you know which micro was deficient?

Likely iron, just because they need the most of it. Ive increased the iron but left the other micros at a lower level, so if they improve a bit but not all the way, ill try tweaking up the Manganese slowly to see if that makes things 100%. Apparently Fe and Mn deficiency in aquatic plants can be pretty similar looking

 

[xZaiox]

I would suggest adding 0.3ppm Mn weekly.

@plantnoobdude - Solufeed got back to me, and turns out they actually did have stock, and have now updated their website. I've purchased some Mn and I'm looking forward to seeing if this improves plant growth - I'll update you with how it goes