Signs of deficiency , E.I, floating plants.

[Jose]

I have the same kind of growth with my ludwigia and its definately a co2 issue (or at least it gets fixed by upping the co2 in my case). Maybe different causes show the same effects on the plants. Or maybe deficiencies can be solved in more than one way. All I know is that I dont know a thing.
In the end its trial and error.

 

[BexM]

I have the same kind of growth with my ludwigia and its definately a co2 issue (or at least it gets fixed by upping the co2 in my case). Maybe different causes show the same effects on the plants. Or maybe deficiencies can be solved in more than one way. All I know is that I dont know a thing.
In the end its trial and error.

I hear you there. The more I learn the more confused I become.

 

[ian_m]

Your EI dosing is correct, you don't need a "good substrate" (what ever that is) as most aquatic plants can take nutrients from the water column (else how would people get such wonderful tanks with sand ??) and 55UK gallons -> 66US gallons -> 1.3W/US gallon, so light not excessively high.

The following facts all point to one cause:-

Problem: pale growth, big dark veins, stunting, wrinkles and curling

Diy Co2 fed into the filter intake.

(I tried t5s but the problem is worse)

To not beat around the bush, getting straight to the point, you CO2 levels are crap 😱 as indicated by the plants. You have CO2 level issues, the plants are telling (if not shouting) out this. Changing to T5's will just make a bad situation worse, as you have found out.

You don't state if you have a drop checker or pH pen to ascertain CO2 levels, but in my experience (unless you are a very very very very experienced DIY CO2 person) there is no point in them as they will all read extremely poor CO2 levels. DIY CO2 is very fickle and very hard to get any decent successful level of CO2, even enough CO2 for T8 light levels.

Remember 99.999% of aquatic plant issues (seen here on UKAPPS), even with T8 lights, is poor CO2 levels. All this Ca:Mg ratios is a distraction from the what the plants are saying.

So way forward:
- Pressurised CO2 to get proper measureable CO2 levels. I have pressurised CO2 cylinders at work, hanging on the wall (how dangerous might fall off), they are call fire extinguishers. No one has died yet.
- Use liquid carbon.
- Halve or even quarter the light levels and hope that fish poo and rotting food provides enough carbon.

 

[BexM]

Hi all,
I'd try upping the amount of nitrogen and potassium (you can just add KNO3 if you have that separately?), and after that magnesium (as Epsom Salts Mg SO4.7H2O).

If your tank water is very hard? it maybe iron (Fe) or magnesium (Mg) deficiency, caused by the ratio of Ca:Mg, or the limited availability of Fe at high pH values.

You can see some "interveinal chlorosis" (see image below) on the older Water Lettuce and Anubias leaves, and magnesium is very mobile within the plant, whilst Iron isn't.

The fact that the Water Lettuce is growing well shows that the tank it isn't majorally deficient in any of the macro nutrients.

The other thing you need to remember is that chlorophyll is a protein, and its synthesis makes quite high demands on the plant. The plant will only synthesise as much chlorophyll as it needs to harvest the available light.

Lots of light = less green plants.

If you have more light than the plant can utilise the additional light energy will begin to damage the chlorophyll. These are what Clive memorably described as <"photon torpedoes">.

Personally I'd keep the floaters, you can always thin them to 50% cover once a week.

cheers Darrel

Thank you for your detailed reply. Yes the water here is indeed very hard.

Could I just add extra to the mix? I'm trying to keep this as simple as I can.

 

[BexM]

Hi all,Assuming that is the cream coloured limestone gravel? That makes it more likely it is a problem with the Ca:Mg ratio.

If it is the multicoloured flint gravel? it may include chalk. If it is entirely flint based? it won't effect water chemistry.

Looking at the last photo you definitely seem to have plenty of light. I'd expect to growth pick up as the tank becomes more mature and you begin to get zones with reduced oxygen levels in the substrate.

cheers Darrel

Oh no 🙁 it is mostly the new stuff and I just added a little to bulk it up because I couldn't afford another bag of porous stuff. Like I said our water is from limestone aquifers round here so that is most likely the cause.

 

[BexM]

Have you thought about not using CO2 as your lighting level should be in the low light level with 2xT8s, this should slow everything down. You might even consider using liquid carbon rather than DIY. Seems strange to have deficiency when your light is at this level.

Well, what your saying makes sense but I found that I kept getting really bad bba and poor growth. I've lost a lot of plant so I tried excel for a while. It's too expensive along with the prime and food.
I thought the diy method would be easier, one less thing to dose, cheaper and supposedly better for the plants.

 

[Jose]

If you have all nutrients in your EI solution/s including magnessium, then Id bet its a co2 thingy.

If you cant afford/or dont like for whichever reason pressurized co2 then I recommend going low tech(no CO2). You can even keep the lights as they are now. CO2 is trickier than anything.

Another option is to lower light even more (say just one t8) and this way the CO2 demand will be lowered. You can still keep the diy co2 in this case.

 

[BexM]

Your EI dosing is correct, you don't need a "good substrate" (what ever that is) as most aquatic plants can take nutrients from the water column (else how would people get such wonderful tanks with sand ??) and 55UK gallons -> 66US gallons -> 1.3W/US gallon, so light not excessively high.

The following facts all point to one cause:-




To not beat around the bush, getting straight to the point, you CO2 levels are crap 😱 as indicated by the plants. You have CO2 level issues, the plants are telling (if not shouting) out this. Changing to T5's will just make a bad situation worse, as you have found out.

You don't state if you have a drop checker or pH pen to ascertain CO2 levels, but in my experience (unless you are a very very very very experienced DIY CO2 person) there is no point in them as they will all read extremely poor CO2 levels. DIY CO2 is very fickle and very hard to get any decent successful level of CO2, even enough CO2 for T8 light levels.

Remember 99.999% of aquatic plant issues (seen here on UKAPPS), even with T8 lights, is poor CO2 levels. All this Ca:Mg ratios is a distraction from the what the plants are saying.

So way forward:
- Pressurised CO2 to get proper measureable CO2 levels. I have pressurised CO2 cylinders at work, hanging on the wall (how dangerous might fall off), they are call fire extinguishers. No one has died yet.
- Use liquid carbon.
- Halve or even quarter the light levels and hope that fish poo and rotting food provides enough carbon.

Thanks for the reply. I don't have a drop checker and I have relied so far on ph/kh tests (not very accurate I know)
I know that gas cylinders are safe, as I said I have done welding and brazing and have used them often. However the thought of having to put a lock on the door to stop my toddler from getting in there and messing with it fills me with anxiety. Plus I don't have that kind ofcash at the moment.

I would much rather lower the light and reduce the need for co2 if that's the problem.

 

[Jose]

I would much rather lower the light and reduce the need for co2 if that's the problem.

You got to the point. You could also use a siesta to let your co2 levels creep back.
you can reduce surface agitation (so long your fish dont gasp and only during the day (photoperiod)

 

[BexM]

Ok. I'm going to remove the reflectors from the lights and try upping my dosing first to see if that helps.

This hobby really frustrates me sometimes. It's supposed to be relaxing!

 

[EnderUK]

Excel is expensive liquid carbon isn't. £15 should get you a litre 4ml a day for your tank bottle should last 8 months

 

[BexM]

Excel is expensive liquid carbon isn't. £15 should get you a litre 4ml a day for your tank bottle should last 8 months

Thanks. I might give that a go if all else fails.

 

[BexM]

I could remove a bulb I suppose.

 

[Jose]

This hobby really frustrates me sometimes. It's supposed to be relaxing!

Low techs are really relaxing and barely any care from your side needed. But if you go for the gas, then its all different. But the sensation youll experiment with it is also not comparable to anything else.

Most people think that a little bit of co2 here and there is better than nothing. Well it turns out it normally istnt, because plants need time to adapt and an stable ecosystem. So, no CO2 (artificial) at all is the way to go IMHO many times. I dont like middle grounds with regards to CO2. I dont like diy co2 or excel.

 

[BexM]

I just can't seem to get the balance right 🙁

Without the co2 I got bba, I read that that was due to fluctuating co2 levels when changing water. I tried less water changes, lots of smaller, water changes, Dirt. I really want to keep the tank stable but stuff keeps going wrong, I'm always reacting to things and messing it up.

 

[ian_m]

try upping my dosing first to see if that helps.

Dose of what ? If dosing EI you will be many many times over the ferts requirements of the plants, especially as your CO2 is clearly the issue.

Liquid carbon is your non scary way forward, if you want to persist with current light level (and plants).

Bargain here, 5ml per 250litre per 24 hours. 1litre will last you 200 days. Done.
http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/neutro-co2-medium-p-6377.html

Preferably dose using a syringe as overdosing is not recommended. Some people dilute say 3:1 with distilled water and daily dose with a more manageable 20ml per day, from measuring bottle, as this much much quicker to do each day than messing around with a tiny syringe.

Can also be used for killing algae.

 

[BexM]

Thanks 🙂 you're right. I might just stick to lowering the light. I'm fed up with the messing around . Would be nice just to do a low tech and just dose once every couple of weeks.
I do think some people are missing the point though. The floating plants are not limited by co2 and they are showing symptoms of having a deficiency so that would imply that there is an imbalance. However I'm assuming (I'm probably wrong) if I lower the lights and slow everything down then it wont be such a problem.

 

[ian_m]

My mate went through the painful process of accidentally moving to a high tech tank when he changed his many years old and incorrect size T8 fluorescent tube to full tank width T5 tube. Algae algae and more algae he suffered.

In the end lowering the light level (putting strips of insulation tape on tank cover) and reducing the light on time to less than his T8 12hours, and dosing when ever (1/4 dose EI ferts and liquid carbon when feeding fish when ever he remembers) and water changes once a month if he can remember, bought algae under control and plants slowly growing algae free.

 

[Jose]

Thanks you're right. I might just stick to lowering the light. I'm fed up with the messing around . Would be nice just to do a low tech and just dose once every couple of weeks.
I do think some people are missing the point though. The floating plants are not limited by co2 and they are showing symptoms of having a deficiency so that would imply that there is an imbalance. However I'm assuming (I'm probably wrong) if I lower the lights and slow everything down then it wont be such a problem.

It could be something else of course but we are missing so much info (like your dosing), that we cant really say anything for sure.
How do you dose? Where did you get the ferts from (a link would help).....etc.

If you fix it by upping the ferts then please let us all know. Because as far as EI and hard water is concerned there is still a lot to prove.

 

[BexM]

Well the reflectors are off, diy still running and I've added some more potassium nitrate to my macro mix.

I'm very close to jacking it in and getting some plastic plants and florescent gravel