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Return to the hobby - some advice required

I hope you’re luckier than I was, my Fluval 207 is noisier than my Biomaster 350 and has a lower flow rate.

I should hope it has a lower flow rate since it's rated much lower than the 350. 207 is rated 780 L/H, 250 900 L/H and 350 1100 L/H. My comparisons were between a 207 and a 250, not a 350. My 207 is quieter than my 250 with upgraded internals, never mind a 350. They're generally regarded as very quiet filters, I appreciate that for whatever reason that wasn't your experience - which is a shame.

Thanks for the info. Tank is in my bedroom, so noise is obviously a factor. I don't have limitless pockets and flow rate is also important, so the 407 wins on all 3. I've gone with the Aquael 300w inline heater and will be feeding Co2 inline also. I saw a lot of positive reviews on youtube for the FZONE FZ-0100 single stage regulator. I have read varying views on the likelihood and severity of end of tank dump, but for sure would be happy to pay extra for the dual stage regulator to avoid it.

Not a problem. Is there an LFS that has the filters in question running so you could see if the noise levels are acceptable for you? If you're ever near Dunfermline you'd be welcome to listen to mine. If you've read positive things about the unit elsewhere then fingers crossed it's good, I haven't used it personally, be cautious of Youtube opinions as many like to peddle whoever is sponsoring them.
 
I am sceptical about whether “end of tank dump” is indeed a thing. The inlet pressure is acting on a very small area compared to the outlet pressure acting on the diaphragm. The outlet pressure is regulated by the outlet chamber pressure pushing against the spring. Unless the spring gets stuck (poor build quality) then I’m not sure how this can be an issue.

If you search “end of tank dump” almost all results are from aquarium forums. “Citation needed” is applied to all references to end of tank dump on Wikipedia. I haven’t seen it happen on my own single stage regulator.
I don't understand the science of 'end of tank dump' (I wonder how many times on this site I've confessed to not understanding the science of something?) but I certainly came home once to a diffuser apparently 'blown off the tank wall' the cylinder pumping out silly amounts of CO2 and the cheap regulator telling me the cylinder was empty. I didn't lose any fish, timing of my arrival I think and the fact the diffuser was on the surface of the tank dancing around and thus putting CO2 Donald Trump like, into the atmosphere. When I took the 'empty' tank to the bottom of the garden and opened up the valve, plenty of gas came out.
 
One of the things I wrote about on here years ago was jumped on by those wishing to save money rather than thinking about safety.

I spoke to a guy who was servicing fire extinguishers where I worked. It was a large site so he was there for several days and I chatted to him quite a bit. He also gave me a couple of nearly out of date extinguishers. I happened to mention about using CO2 fire extinguishers connected to an Aquarium regulator. He said it was a bad idea and said the valve on the bottle (extinguisher) was only designed to be single use. Or put other way it was designed to be fully sealed against leaks up until the point the handle was pulled to empty it (on a fire). It was Not expected to be leak free when used for a purpose for which it was not designed, IE kept open over a period of weeks or months.

Obviously, any accident involving equipment being used in a manner for which it is not intended would invalidate any insurance.

I understand why some might take the risk for themselves. But I was quite shocked that some on here dismissed the issue to a point where others might also take a chance buoyed up by their bravado.

I’ve not looked since, but proper cylinders for dispensing food grade CO2 for the pub trade were not desperately expensive at the time and some on here did use and recommend them.

I never bothered with CO2 in the end as my plants grow well enough without it. If I did though I’d make doubly sure any equipment I used was up to and designed for the task. YMMV.
 
One of the things I wrote about on here years ago was jumped on by those wishing to save money rather than thinking about safety.

I spoke to a guy who was servicing fire extinguishers where I worked. It was a large site so he was there for several days and I chatted to him quite a bit. He also gave me a couple of nearly out of date extinguishers. I happened to mention about using CO2 fire extinguishers connected to an Aquarium regulator. He said it was a bad idea and said the valve on the bottle (extinguisher) was only designed to be single use. Or put other way it was designed to be fully sealed against leaks up until the point the handle was pulled to empty it (on a fire). It was Not expected to be leak free when used for a purpose for which it was not designed, IE kept open over a period of weeks or months.

Obviously, any accident involving equipment being used in a manner for which it is not intended would invalidate any insurance.

I understand why some might take the risk for themselves. But I was quite shocked that some on here dismissed the issue to a point where others might also take a chance buoyed up by their bravado.

I’ve not looked since, but proper cylinders for dispensing food grade CO2 for the pub trade were not desperately expensive at the time and some on here did use and recommend them.

I never bothered with CO2 in the end as my plants grow well enough without it. If I did though I’d make doubly sure any equipment I used was up to and designed for the task. YMMV.

This is an interesting point, last time I was at Horizon Aquatics, one of the owner's spoke to me about a similar thing. Going from very rough memory he said that the person that supplies/refills the CO2 at the shop had voiced their concerns with the use of fire extinguishers for aquarium use, sadly I can't remember all the finer details as to why though but it sounded pretty reasonable to me at the time. On one hand I don't know of anyone having had a serious issue due to using a fire extinguisher, on the other hand, if there is only a slightly higher risk, or the risk goes from minor into potentially major/life threatening one - then it's certainly something that is worthy of consideration, I'd love to know for sure but it's above my pay grade 🙁
 
the cheap regulator telling me the cylinder was empty.
I think ‘cheap’ is the important word here.
Obviously, any accident involving equipment being used in a manner for which it is not intended would invalidate any insurance.
Would anything other than an aquarium branded co2 product be covered then? What if the regulator was sold and says it fits fire extinguishers? I’m not in insurance but I could guess at the answers to both those questions.
 
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I am sceptical about whether “end of tank dump” is indeed a thing. The inlet pressure is acting on a very small area compared to the outlet pressure acting on the diaphragm. The outlet pressure is regulated by the outlet chamber pressure pushing against the spring. Unless the spring gets stuck (poor build quality) then I’m not sure how this can be an issue.
I'm pretty convinced this is real based on my direct experience. I have a two gauge single stage regulator and I do notice the flow increases after the tank pressure starts dropping below the constant level the tank otherwise holds at before it starts running out. That said at least for me so far the increase hasn't been super dramatic and since I don't inject very aggressively I haven't noticed any adverse effects. I keep a watch out for it and when it starts creeping up I turn down the regulator to compensate and order a new tank.
 
One of the things I wrote about on here years ago was jumped on by those wishing to save money rather than thinking about safety.

I spoke to a guy who was servicing fire extinguishers where I worked. It was a large site so he was there for several days and I chatted to him quite a bit. He also gave me a couple of nearly out of date extinguishers. I happened to mention about using CO2 fire extinguishers connected to an Aquarium regulator. He said it was a bad idea and said the valve on the bottle (extinguisher) was only designed to be single use. Or put other way it was designed to be fully sealed against leaks up until the point the handle was pulled to empty it (on a fire). It was Not expected to be leak free when used for a purpose for which it was not designed, IE kept open over a period of weeks or months.

Obviously, any accident involving equipment being used in a manner for which it is not intended would invalidate any insurance.

I understand why some might take the risk for themselves. But I was quite shocked that some on here dismissed the issue to a point where others might also take a chance buoyed up by their bravado.

I’ve not looked since, but proper cylinders for dispensing food grade CO2 for the pub trade were not desperately expensive at the time and some on here did use and recommend them.

I never bothered with CO2 in the end as my plants grow well enough without it. If I did though I’d make doubly sure any equipment I used was up to and designed for the task. YMMV.
So glad that I read your post, as I was about to go down the fire extinguisher route. Thank you for posting.
 
So glad that I read your post, as I was about to go down the fire extinguisher route. Thank you for posting.

I wouldn't take such a strong stance based on our second hand hearsay, as from what I can gather so far that's all we have (albeit from people in the FE field). The other part of me says that there are endless enthusiasts using FE's and I'm yet to hear of a horror story which was proven to be caused by them. I would love for someone in the field to test it somehow for us so that we could have a valid conclusion, instead of solely words without the testing evidence to reinforce it.
 
I might well be wrong but seem to remember reading that when the last bit of liquid CO2 turns to gas in the cylinder the pressure increases.
I would have thought a non budget modern day single stage reg and a half decent needle valve would probably help alleviate the problem but perhaps not totally eliminate it.
 
I wouldn't take such a strong stance based on our second hand hearsay, as from what I can gather so far that's all we have (albeit from people in the FE field). The other part of me says that there are endless enthusiasts using FE's and I'm yet to hear of a horror story which was proven to be caused by them. I would love for someone in the field to test it somehow for us so that we could have a valid conclusion, instead of solely words without the testing evidence to reinforce it.
I’d rather accept the opinion of an expert in the field than internet hobbyists toying with equipment in a way it’s not designed for.
So many people say ridiculous things like “I’ve been doing this for over 40 years and never had a problem”. One of the last ones was a guy at work about his smoking habit. He died in his early 60’s of lung cancer.

With safe alternatives readily available why take the risk?!

Some of the dedicated Aquarium CO2 bottles and equipment look so good to me aesthetically that I’d be happy to have them on display. And I’ve seen many setups online of people who think the same way.
A bright red fire extinguisher with a cable tie round the handle - not so much. 😂
 
I’d rather accept the opinion of an expert in the field than internet hobbyists toying with equipment in a way it’s not designed for.
That's fine you do you, but have those experts done any tests to show that the use in this hobby is dangerous?

So many people say ridiculous things like “I’ve been doing this for over 40 years and never had a problem”. One of the last ones was a guy at work about his smoking habit. He died in his early 60’s of lung cancer.
Yes because comparing something which has decades of research, studies and evidence showing the harmful effects, is comparable to FE's in the aquarium hobby, which seem to be lacking all/most of the forementioned in regards to catastrophic failure. Or maybe you were drawing a parallel between the stupid/ignorant person and myself - if so I don't really care.

With safe alternatives readily available why take the risk?!
You say "safe alternatives" implying that FE's aren't safe, can you show this to be the case? If so I would genuinely love to read through it. Just how risky is it running a FE?

Some of the dedicated Aquarium CO2 bottles and equipment look so good to me aesthetically that I’d be happy to have them on display.
Nothing wrong with that, I also have some of the "pretty" ones. Others couldn't care less as they have them hidden in a cabinet and they are purely functional to them, this is also fine. Not sure what this has to do with anything.

And I’ve seen many setups online of people who think the same way.
So because some people online share the same aesthetic values as you - FE's are dangerous? Not sure what your point is?

A bright red fire extinguisher with a cable tie round the handle - not so much. 😂
Not sure why you keep fixating on aesthetics when that isn't what my point was?

I never bothered with CO2 in the end as my plants grow well enough without it. If I did though I’d make doubly sure any equipment I used was up to and designed for the task. YMMV.
Hopefully you can work your way up to an "internet hobbyist toying with equipment in a way it’s not designed for" a highly coveted rank.

Edit - Just to clarify my stance, normal CO2 cylinders we know are safe. FE's have a question mark due to it not being their intended use, however, there is many in the field and has been for a long period of time, which leads me to think they must be relatively safe, if this isn't the case, then I'd like to see evidence, ideally from actual testing. I have no horse in this race, I have both types currently in use and if it turned out that FE's were far more risky then I would switch them out.
 
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There must be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of CO2 fire extinguishers in the UK. They are not anything brand new, rather it is a tried and tested technology, any minor flaws have surely been deleted by now. If there were any serious safety concerns with them it would be well known by now. The change of use from original (storing CO2 safely for ten years in case it is needed to extinguish a fire) to hobbyist (storing CO2 to be supplied through a regulator to an aquarium) is not that different. Something that is perfectly safe does not become suddenly dangerous with a minor change of attached hardware.
 
There must be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of CO2 fire extinguishers in the UK. They are not anything brand new, rather it is a tried and tested technology.
Yes of course, for use as Fire Extinguishers. The valves in them were never designed to be used for anything else.
 
That's fine you do you, but have those experts done any tests to show that the use in this hobby is dangerous.
Why on earth would a Fire Extinguisher manufacturer test their product for use on an Aquarium?! 🙄 come on get real.
I won’t even bother trying to address your other points because quite frankly you’ve made up your own mind that it’s perfectly safe.
I knew at least one person would protest against a potential safety issue just to save a few pennies but that’s the way it goes sometimes. I’ll speak up and be a target again if it keeps just one person safe.
By airing on the side of caution my conscious is clear, but would yours be if someone had an accident using a method you’re promoting so forcefully?

I’ll say no more on this topic on this particular thread. But can’t guarantee I’ll stay quiet if it comes up again at a later date.
 
Why on earth would a Fire Extinguisher manufacturer test their product for use on an Aquarium?! 🙄 come on get real.
I didn't say anything about a FE manufacturer, I said an expert. It's hard to have a discussion when you make up a false narrative.
I won’t even bother trying to address your other points because quite frankly you’ve made up your own mind that it’s perfectly safe.
Considering I'm looking for evidence to learn more and am having discussion on it, I think that's clearly not true. On the other hand you've said your opinion, ignored all the points and then said you're leaving. Who's made up their mind?
I knew at least one person would protest against a potential safety issue just to save a few pennies but that’s the way it goes sometimes.
Yes, the reason is I can't afford it, I've attached a picture with one of my CO2 bottles that I can't afford. Ironic you're going to talk about money when you haven't invested as much as a fart in an empty cylinder in CO2.
I’ll speak up and be a target again if it keeps just one person safe.
A victim as well as a saviour.
By airing on the side of caution my conscious is clear, but would yours be if someone had an accident using a method you’re promoting so forcefully?
This is a discussion, I would expect people to do their own research and learn from others in a hobby and come to their own conclusion, like an adult? If you think that is forceful then the real world is going to be a tough place.
I’ll say no more on this topic on this particular thread. But can’t guarantee I’ll stay quiet if it comes up again at a later date.
I'd rather you stayed if you have something to contribute rather than run away as soon as your premise is challenged. You need to put your ego aside and stop trying to win an argument/debate. I am interested in learning, I don't care who is right as long as I learn what is right.

Edit - I'm aware we're taking over @Mikewol's thread which is unfair, happy to take to PM or I'll set up a thread on it so that anyone interested can discuss. Sorry Mike and good luck with your tank.
 

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One of the things I wrote about on here years ago was jumped on by those wishing to save money rather than thinking about safety.

I spoke to a guy who was servicing fire extinguishers where I worked. It was a large site so he was there for several days and I chatted to him quite a bit. He also gave me a couple of nearly out of date extinguishers. I happened to mention about using CO2 fire extinguishers connected to an Aquarium regulator. He said it was a bad idea and said the valve on the bottle (extinguisher) was only designed to be single use. Or put other way it was designed to be fully sealed against leaks up until the point the handle was pulled to empty it (on a fire). It was Not expected to be leak free when used for a purpose for which it was not designed, IE kept open over a period of weeks or months.

Obviously, any accident involving equipment being used in a manner for which it is not intended would invalidate any insurance.

I understand why some might take the risk for themselves. But I was quite shocked that some on here dismissed the issue to a point where others might also take a chance buoyed up by their bravado.

I’ve not looked since, but proper cylinders for dispensing food grade CO2 for the pub trade were not desperately expensive at the time and some on here did use and recommend them.

I never bothered with CO2 in the end as my plants grow well enough without it. If I did though I’d make doubly sure any equipment I used was up to and designed for the task. YMMV.
I've spent some time looking into this yesterday and today. And obviously, it is a catch-all, ref. 'intended use'. I use LED floodlights on my tank and garden centre fertiliser and sometimes human vitamin tablets, for Potassium. I once had an 'expert' PFK endorsed writer, tell me, very firmly, you must not use pond soil in a fish tank, but in truth the difference between a pond and a fishtank?
Anyway, from what I have found, so far, FE are designed to be very safe, safe in internal situations, but clearly not designed for the purpose of feeding CO2 slowly into fish tanks, however, if properly reconditioned/checked/serviced etc., should be safe, the bigger issue seems to be, the quality of any regulator attached, there are some very cheap and flimsy aluminium regulators on the market, and, making sure the FE cannot be knocked over, tampered with by young children etc., and regularly checking that it never is operating outside of safe pressure zones, I can't realistically source affordable alternatives and have used 'top of the range' refillable bottles in the past much to my financial regret. Once I had an employee at a factory where I got my bottle refilled, tell me, that only food grade CO2 was safe for fish, proved that wrong two or three decades ago. I am 'sitting on the fence' on this one and thinking maybe a 2 Kg rather than 5 Kg FE is perhaps a safer option.
I once put a fire out in a total stranger's car with a powder fire extinguisher, they couldn't fathom why I would carry one around in my boot, even though I saved their relatively new car from a potentially catastrophic engine fire. We all make odd and sometimes irrational decisions. I've never been one for unplugging the TV at night, but I find electric blankets slightly terrifying.
 
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