Reactor questions / how long is a piece of overthinking?

[Hufsa]

So im building a custom(ish) reactor.
Ive had a few late nights with water all over the floor trying to get the chinese Yidao reactor to seal properly, and 22802's CO2 spray bar wasnt ideal for my preferences and maintenance phobia.

Based on the prices of large diameter transparent PVC pipe and fittings, I decided to go for a Cerges style reactor rather than a Griggs.
I have ordered a 20" filter housing after hunting around for quite a few days to find a tolerable price. (Atlas Filtri Master Plus 3P AFO SX Clear Housing 20")

I havent decided for sure how im gonna set it up internally, I quite like the concept of Cerges a la @foxfish , but the varying results from some others in that thread makes me a bit nervous.
I think I have a few things going for my setup that makes it more likely to work though. A long a** filter house so bubbles wont escape easily, and im gonna run the reactor using a dedicated pump rated at up to 5500l/h (adjustable).
Alternatively if I cant get that to work well, I could see about 3D printing a guide/funnel for the water as it enters the filter the standard way, to introduce a swirling/vortex. Either way will figure something out about the internal bits.
I have a 250 liter tank atm but might go bigger in the distant future, which is why I want to have equipment that can work for bigger size tanks as well.

My main questions are;
-Do I definitely not need a bypass for this setup, or should I spend extra on making a bypass just in case it is needed (now or in the future)?
I have a feeling the bypass might be too much overthinking even by Hufsa standards, in which case I need someone to tell it to me straight 😁

-Brass. Cant find a conclusive answer on this. Should it be avoided? The housing has brass threads on the ports, but I assume this part is ok and/or will be covered up by whatever other fitting is screwed into the ports? But Brass on the other fittings?
Brass is approved for drinking water but humans can take much more copper than shrimp can, no? Especially if sometime in the future I want to run stupidly soft water a la @plantnoobdude , that water is going to be acidic and devoid of life salts, would this kind of water be likely to uptake more copper from the brass?

-Can Nylon fittings be used for the smallest bits like the 4/5mm connection that the CO2 tube needs? Does Nylon hold up to acidic water over time?
I have found the equivalent parts in stainless steel, but they are over double the price of the nylon ones.

-If I go for a modified style of Cerges instead of introducing the CO2 through a T pipe, I will need to put a hole in either the top of the filter housing, or the side of the vessel. What fitting will be best and most secure for this purpose?
Im concerned about getting a good enough seal against curved plastic. Does doubling up on soft washers make the curve easier to get sealed?

Could I use something like these +washers?

 

[foxfish]

You are right that not everyone could get my design to work for them, this was because they could not get the same size vessel that I was using.
I dont think anyone has tried it with a 20“ vessel but I would think it would work very well.
The concept is sound and the internal component is free.
I have tried other formats that also worked but the bottle offered a much higher flow rate.
However a lot depends on how much you are prepared to experiment as in effect you will be the first person that I know about to try with a tall thin vessel.

 

[Hufsa]

However a lot depends on how much you are prepared to experiment as in effect you will be the first person that I know about to try with a tall thin vessel.

Im already im halfway through my second bottle of nasty tasting soda because the bottles they came in looked promising, so I think im off to a good start
Do you reckon I should get a bypass to make sure I can adjust the flow too?
Im worried I guess that the flow I want for the tank itself wont happen to be perfectly the same as whatever magic amount of flow the reactor + weird swedish soda bottles need, y'know?

Oh while I have you here, what is the width of the clear part of your original vessel Foxfish?

 

[foxfish]

Yes a adjustable flow will be very important, I am fairly sure it was four inch but I can check tomo as I still have it.

 

[xZaiox]

Do I definitely not need a bypass for this setup, or should I spend extra on making a bypass just in case it is needed (now or in the future)?

I have a 20" cerges reactor running off a fluval 407 (rated at 1450 L/H). It works great without a bypass, but I do think if you put more flow through it you might run in to issues.

Ive had a few late nights with water all over the floor trying to get the chinese Yidao reactor to seal properly

Before I built my reactor, I also purchased one of these Yidao reactors from aliexpress. It arrived unusable due to poor manufacturing; the bit where the co2 tubing connects was installed at such an angle that the screw-down lid couldn't fully secure itself 🙄 no idea how it made it through quality control (if they even have that...). On the plus side, it forced me to make the cerges reactor, and learn a thing or two about hard piping

 

[Hufsa]

I have a 20" cerges reactor running off a fluval 407 (rated at 1450 L/H). It works great without a bypass, but I do think if you put more flow through it you might run in to issues.

Hmhmhm, it seems the voices are in favor of the bypass indeed 🧙‍♂️ I would much rather have a bypass and not need it, than need a bypass and not have it.
Getting things shipped to Norway is almost half the cost of the entire project, so to have to do a second order for a bypass would be bad.
Usually buying local is not feasible either because selection is very poor / cant get the parts needed at all, or prohibitively expensive, often both.

Before I built my reactor, I also purchased one of these Yidao reactors from aliexpress. It arrived unusable due to poor manufacturing; the bit where the co2 tubing connects was installed at such an angle that the screw-down lid couldn't fully secure itself 🙄 no idea how it made it through quality control (if they even have that...). On the plus side, it forced me to make the cerges reactor, and learn a thing or two about hard piping

Dont think they have a ton of that quality control no..
Im aware that many are very happy with their Yidao, but tbh when I unpacked mine I looked at the plastic quality and thought "well this is going to be an issue sooner rather than later".
Mine worked "ok" when I didnt touch it, but as soon as I needed to clean stuff, getting it sealed back up again correctly was a nightmare. It didnt work optimally either since I didnt have enough flow powering it with just a 2000l/h canister filter, so after it threatened to flood my livingroom a couple of times the bar was very low to get rid of it.

 

[Hanuman]

-Do I definitely not need a bypass for this setup, or should I spend extra on making a bypass just in case it is needed (now or in the future)?
I have a feeling the bypass might be too much overthinking even by Hufsa standards, in which case I need someone to tell it to me straight 😁

It can be useful if you are not sure of flow rate etc etc. Only issue I see with a bypass is that it can further decrease your overall flow rate due to additional piping, elbows etc. It's not a bad idea to have one though and it's easy to add.

I havent decided for sure how im gonna set it up internally, I quite like the concept of Cerges a la @foxfish , but the varying results from some others in that thread makes me a bit nervous.
I think I have a few things going for my setup that makes it more likely to work though. A long a** filter house so bubbles wont escape easily, and im gonna run the reactor using a dedicated pump rated at up to 5500l/h (adjustable).
Alternatively if I cant get that to work well, I could see about 3D printing a guide/funnel for the water as it enters the filter the standard way, to introduce a swirling/vortex. Either way will figure something out about the internal bits.
I have a 250 liter tank atm but might go bigger in the distant future, which is why I want to have equipment that can work for bigger size tanks as well.

IMO a vortex system is not a necessity if the reactor is sized properly in relation to the flow (either tall enough or wide enough). Although it's also not necessarily a bad idea to have a few bubbles escaping the system. Plants can benefit from the micro bubbles. My system has a few small bubbles coming out but nothing like diffuser ofc.

-Brass. Cant find a conclusive answer on this. Should it be avoided? The housing has brass threads on the ports, but I assume this part is ok and/or will be covered up by whatever other fitting is screwed into the ports? But Brass on the other fittings?
Brass is approved for drinking water but humans can take much more copper than shrimp can, no? Especially if sometime in the future I want to run stupidly soft water a la @plantnoobdude , that water is going to be acidic and devoid of life salts, would this kind of water be likely to uptake more copper from the brass?

I had thought about that when building my reactor and the answer was simple. Why tempt the devil? So I went all plastic with the reactor. The acidity drops quite a bit and with time metals will corrode. If you are using those fitting on the CO2 line then that's ok but if water comes in contact with those fitting I would rather use plastics.

-If I go for a modified style of Cerges instead of introducing the CO2 through a T pipe, I will need to put a hole in either the top of the filter housing, or the side of the vessel. What fitting will be best and most secure for this purpose?
Im concerned about getting a good enough seal against curved plastic. Does doubling up on soft washers make the curve easier to get sealed?

I would suggest from the top, and add a small rigid pvc tube that descends a good 1/3 of the heigh of the housing so you can see when CO2 is being injected. As I said above, I would suggest a plastic/nylon fitting. I really don't like involving metals in a tank.
Also sometimes these water filter housing incorporate a small valve to bleed the air when filling it with water. If yours doesn't then I would also suggest you add an additional valve to vent the air when putting your reactor in service. You'll thank me later on that one.

Picture of my current reactor. Early design vs the one I have been using for the past 1.5 years or so. At that time I had also incorporated a venturi valve to bleed excess CO2 back in the pipe. I eventually removed it as I though it was not really necessary.

 

[Hufsa]

It can be useful if you are not sure of flow rate etc etc. Only issue I see with a bypass is that it can further decrease your overall flow rate due to additional piping, elbows etc. It's not a bad idea to have one though and it's easy to add.

Yeah I think im gonna go for a bypass, theres a lot of things im unsure about when it comes to the flow on the system.
Plus I would really like to be able to adjust the flow through the reactor independently from the flow intensity in the tank.

IMO a vortex system is not a necessity if the reactor is sized properly in relation to the flow (either tall enough or wide enough). Although it's also not necessarily a bad idea to have a few bubbles escaping the system. Plants can benefit from the micro bubbles. My system has a few small bubbles coming out but nothing like diffuser ofc.

Id prefer not to have any bubbles escaping, just personal preference
But interesting to hear you dont think a vortex might not even be necessary, I think with a 20" housing on a relatively not huge tank of 250, im confident ill be able to get a good working solution.

I had thought about that when building my reactor and the answer was simple. Why tempt the devil? So I went all plastic with the reactor. The acidity drops quite a bit and with time metals will corrode. If you are using those fitting on the CO2 line then that's ok but if water comes in contact with those fitting I would rather use plastics.

Plastics, does this include nylon then?
Stainless steel is better than brass in this situation I think, but stainless can still rust and its going to be pretty acidic in the reactor. Not like a strong undiluted acid, but still, if im going to all this effort to make a custom reactor, then why do a halfway job, know what i mean?
So does Nylon come out on top over metals, or do I need to source a different kind of plastic other than Nylon?

Im aware that bonding different plastic types can be difficult, so I am sort of hoping I can get the connection between plastics snug enough with careful application of tape on the threads?

I would suggest from the top, and add a small rigid pvc tube that descends a good 1/3 of the heigh of the housing so you can see when CO2 is being injected. As I said above, I would suggest a plastic/nylon fitting. I really don't like involving metals in a tank.

Gotcha

Also sometimes these water filter housing incorporate a small valve to bleed the air when filling it with water. If yours doesn't then I would also suggest you add an additional valve to vent the air when putting your reactor in service. You'll thank me later on that one.

Yes! I definitely need a bleed valve that works independently to the CO2 input. Getting everything back up and running again after cleaning is a huge pita so I want to make this as simple as possible.
Im pretty sure my filter housing comes with a bleed valve, its just a simple screw thing. I will inspect it further when the housing arrives, should be tomorrow.

Picture of my current reactor.

Nice
That quick fitting you have out on the water hose, what product/brand is that?
Im looking for similar quick fittings, but dont want to have to take out a second mortgage to buy the Eheim ones if I can help it

 

[Wookii]

stainless can still rust and its going to be pretty acidic in the reactor

Stainless steel won't rust, the acids aren't strong enough, particularly if you get 316 grade for any fittings, but plastic will be just as serviceable and cheaper.

I had (still have in storage) a 20"filter housing as a CO2 reactor on my previous set-up, and it worked very well and required no maintenance, however it did result in a significant reduction in flow in my setup. That said I had 90 degree elbows on both the inlet and outlet which undoubtedly cost me a lot of flow.

 

[Hanuman]

But interesting to hear you dont think a vortex might not even be necessary, I think with a 20" housing on a relatively not huge tank of 250, im confident ill be able to get a good working solution.

The vortex simply extends the time which the bubbles are in contact with water.

Plastics, does this include nylon then?

Yes I use plastic as a generic term. Could be nylon or PVC or any plastic that has no issue with acids.

Stainless steel is better than brass in this situation I think, but stainless can still rust and its going to be pretty acidic in the reactor. Not like a strong undiluted acid, but still, if im going to all this effort to make a custom reactor, then why do a halfway job, know what i mean?
So does Nylon come out on top over metals, or do I need to source a different kind of plastic other than Nylon?

Yes stainless is better but It also depends which SS. There are many types of SS but in general for food grade use we normally use SS 304 or SS 316. Both can withstand acidity levels way beyond what you would see in a tank (PH 4.5++). As an example, the spigots of my Kombucha vessels are made of SS 304 and that liquid can go down to PH 2-3. The spigots show no sign of corrosion.

Im aware that bonding different plastic types can be difficult, so I am sort of hoping I can get the connection between plastics snug enough with careful application of tape on the threads?

Applying teflon tape is a good idea. I also I used a bit of epoxy once fitted on all connections to be sure.

Im pretty sure my filter housing comes with a bleed valve, its just a simple screw thing. I will inspect it further when the housing arrives, should be tomorrow.

Perfect. Even better.

That quick fitting you have out on the water hose, what product/brand is that?
Im looking for similar quick fittings, but dont want to have to take out a second mortgage to buy the Eheim ones if I can help it

I feel you. Eheim abuses on the price for those. I bought the ISTA Quick Release IF-778.

 

[Hufsa]

Stainless steel won't rust, the acids aren't strong enough, particularly if you get 316 grade for any fittings, but plastic will be just as serviceable and cheaper.

Nice, alright 😊 Im trying to keep the budget down on this monstrosity and it looks like 304 might be much more commonly available, will that do you think?

I had (still have in storage) a 20"filter housing as a CO2 reactor on my previous set-up, and it worked very well and required no maintenance, however it did result in a significant reduction in flow in my setup. That said I had 90 degree elbows on both the inlet and outlet which undoubtedly cost me a lot of flow.

Ah I was thinking about asking why you swapped to the Yidao, because I saw an old post of yours mentioning a 20" housing. Do you still plan on using the Yidao for your new swanky spaceship or do you have something even more Wooki-engineered in mind?
Your old 20" was without a bypass then I take it? Powered by a canister filter or?
The elbows, were they the compact 90 degree kind or the long swooping kind?

Yes I use plastic as a generic term. Could be nylon or PVC or any plastic that has no issue with acids.

😃👍

Yes stainless is better but It also depends which SS. There are many types of SS but in general for food grade use we normally use SS 304 or SS 316. Both can withstand acidity levels way beyond what you would see in a tank (PH 4.5++). As an example, the spigots of my Kombucha vessels are made of SS 304 and that liquid can go down to PH 2-3. The spigots show no sign of corrosion.

Nice, cause I was thinking for the insertion point of the CO2, having something threaded that can be tightened a bit without the threads turning to mush might be an advantage. In my limited experience one has to be very careful with plastic threads. Noted then that you approve of 304 😊

I feel you. Eheim abuses on the price for those. I bought the ISTA Quick Release IF-778.

The pricing on those Eheim taps are downright rude for the bits of plastic they actually are 😤 Thanks for the tip, I will look into the ISTA ones 😁


What do you think about the layout for the bypass? Also happy to hear input from anyone else too, just grabbing hold of whoever I can with experience 😁

This is just a rough mock up, but do you see any obvious flaws? I thought I might need the bottom left union in order to maintain that area of the piping. Other than that I thought it would be best to avoid too many threaded connections, with their associated risk of leaking? But enough threaded parts to still be able to take it apart occasionally to clean though 🤔

Im also wondering if this Y type fitting below would be better than the one above?


Water doesnt really like to change directions it seems, so in the top one the water would mainly want to travel through the bypass, while in the bottom, the water would be divided more 50/50?

 

[Hanuman]

What do you think about the layout for the bypass? Also happy to hear input from anyone else too, just grabbing hold of whoever I can with experience 😁

This is just a rough mock up, but do you see any obvious flaws? I thought I might need the bottom left union in order to maintain that area of the piping. Other than that I thought it would be best to avoid too many threaded connections, with their associated risk of leaking? But enough threaded parts to still be able to take it apart occasionally to clean though 🤔

Looks fine to me. You could also use a simple hose. Makes the system more flexible. Doesn't really matter.

Here is an example of a cerges reactor with a bypass but set up vertically.

 

[Wookii]

Ah I was thinking about asking why you swapped to the Yidao, because I saw an old post of yours mentioning a 20" housing. Do you still plan on using the Yidao for your new swanky spaceship or do you have something even more Wooki-engineered in mind?

😂

I must hang my head in shame and admit that I never got around to pressing the Yidao into service - I'm running the JBL inline diffusor on my farm/crypt tank, and an in tank diffuser on my plant/fish holding tank.

CO2 is going to be a bit of trial and error on the new tank. Fortunately with the sump, I can run it on a completely separate loop with its own little pump. To start with I've got one of the little German JD Aquatec reactors to try out:

JDAquatec - PRESSE

Vorsprung durch Ideen

www.jdaquatec.de

Mainly because I like the form factor which will fit inside the sump, and I'm intrigued by the design. if that doesn't work, that I may press the Yidao into service. If that leaks or has issues, that it'll be back to the big 20" reactor.

Your old 20" was without a bypass then I take it? Powered by a canister filter or?

Yes, I just ran it inline with an Oase 850 on a 100 litre tank.

The elbows, were they the compact 90 degree kind or the long swooping kind?

They were the tight 90 degree kind. My filter housing has 3/4" BSP threaded ports on the side, so I found some 3/4" BSP to hose barb elbows to fit to it. Then just connected hose from those to the filter on the input side, and the filter outlet hose to the tank on the other.

EDIT: I should add, the flow reduction was enough for me to buy an EcoTech Vectra S2 pump, remove the Oase 850 impellor and impellor cover, and use the Vectra to pump the water at a rated 4000+ lph (before flow constriction deductions).

 

[Wookii]

Got to ask - what is the reason for the bypass?

 

[Hanuman]

Got to ask - what is the reason for the bypass?

Decrease water flow/velocity to prevent bubbles escaping.

 

[Wookii]

Decrease water flow/velocity to prevent bubbles escaping.

Oh right. I'm not sure how necessary that is going to be on a 20" filter housing. They are massive, and I very rarely got any bubbles passing into the tank on mine even with the Vectra strapped on, and if I did a bit of coarse sponge at the bottom of the inner pipe (I used a perspex pipe running top to bottom inside the filter housing, with large holes cut at the base).

EDIT: Ah, found my original post, so you can see what I'm banging on about:

DIY Barr's venturi design reactor build

@Nigel95 I didn’t know whether to post this in your EW-604 thread or here, but posted it here as its in the CO2 section and more active. I use a 20” filter housing as a CO2 reactor - it works very well, was easy to build, and is largely maintenance free. I basically bought a length of clear...

www.ukaps.org

 

[Hufsa]

Filter housing arrived today, a day before expected which was a nice surprise.
What was not a nice surprise is that its not transparent and doesnt even appear to be the same brand as the one I ordered
(cries in hassle)
Ive sent off an email to them so hopefully we can figure out what happened, im sure there must have been a mix up in the warehouse or something.
So the filter housing itself will be delayed at the very least, which gives me more time to figure out what to do with the plumbing I suppose 🙃

I see the elbows @Wookii used on his housing were actually the kind I would classify as elongated, so it seems like I should be prepared for my 20" housing to eat quite a lot of the flow
Maybe I wont have as much flow to spare as I thought I would?
You ran your pump at full (4000 minus reality) you say?

 

[Wookii]

I would go straight into the filter housing if you are able and avoid the elbows I had to use, if you have space, but yeah I suspect you’ll lose a fair bit of flow.

I ran the EcoTech at 90%, but in fair I was probably using it a fair bit out of spec in a push-pull configuration (pulling through an entire Oase 850 and then pushing through the reactor).

 

[Hanuman]

Oh right. I'm not sure how necessary that is going to be on a 20" filter housing.

That all really depends on the pump being used. Too strong of a pump and bubbles will escape even with a 20'' housing. If Hufsa will be using this reactor on a separate loop than the canister then in fact it's easy to size the pump to the reactor and a bypass will not be necessary. Some pumps even have an adjustable flow rate in which case a bypass is totally unnecessary.

 

[Wookii]

That all really depends on the pump being used. Too strong of a pump and bubbles will escape even with a 20'' housing. If Hufsa will be using this reactor on a separate loop than the canister then in fact it's easy to size the pump to the reactor and a bypass will not be necessary. Some pumps even have an adjustable flow rate in which case a bypass is totally unnecessary.

Agree with everything you've said in principle guys, where I was coming from is that I just suspect that if @Hufsa is connecting this up to a standard type canister filter, and given her tank size, she'll never get enough flow through the reactor to have to worry about having any flow bypass and there'll always be a CO2 pocket at the top during the injection period.

If I've mis understood, and @Hufsa is creating this as a separate loop with its own pump, then as you say @Hanuman I'd probably rather use an over specified speed controllable DC pump and avoid the extra plumbing.