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Raising Nitrate to 20ppm as an indication you are dosing enough ferts??

Neil6

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2020
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67
Location
Uk
I've heard talk about increasing the ferts dose till the nitrate levels raises to 20ppm higher than the base line? Have you heard about this?
2mins 50sec.


I've always looked at my TDS as a guide?
I'm starting the week after a water change at 120-150TDS raising to 280 -320TDS by the end of the week, but I've been told this isn't a good way to know if I'm dosing enough ferts?
How do I know I'm dosing enough for my plants and what's too much?
Heavy planted 324lr tank
Lots of co2
Powerful lights
EI. Method
Low number of fish

Thanks again for your time & knowledge in advance!
 
Hi all,
I've heard talk about increasing the ferts dose till the nitrate levels raises to 20ppm higher than the base line?
Assuming that all the <"other essential nutrients"> are available many plants will show a <"linear growth response"> to increased nitrogen levels. It is the principal that underlies the <"Leaf colour Chart"> and, subsequently, the <"Duckweed Index">.

<"Both Estimative and Duckweed Indices"> don't attempt to <"directly measure nitrate (NO3-) levels"> and this just reflects the practical difficulties with <"obtaining accurate values"> for nitrate.

Personally <"I don't want optimal growth">, and I don't grow any <"turned up to eleven plants">, so I'm not going to add anything like Estimative Index (EI) levels of nutrients.
I've always looked at my TDS as a guide?
I use <"TDS"> (a <"conductivity datum range">) <"as a guide">. Conductivity meters are <"plug and play">.
How do I know I'm dosing enough for my plants
Just use <"plant growth">, it works and it is actually a technique (<"bioassay">) used by a lot of scientists.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,
I still have no idea why measuring TDS is useful. All the ferts are ions (dry salts) so they all mess with TDS measurements.
Yes, that is the issue straight away, the meter just a measure of the <"linear relationship"> between ionic strength and electrical conductivity. It doesn't tell you anything about ionic composition, however it does give you some clues and even cheap, conductivity meters are accurate and easy to use.

All the information a conductivity meter gives you is inferential. So some scenarios may help.
  • You've moved to a new region and you don't know what your tap water is like. You've carried out a pH test and the <"value has comes out at pH8">. You know you have alkaline tap water, but <"is it soft">?, Or hard and carbonate buffered? A conductivity reading will tell you, if you get ~100 microS? Soft water with sodium hydroxide (NaOH) injection and if it is 650 microS? Hard, alkaline water with <"~17 dGH & 17 dKH">.
  • Wildly varying conductivity values throughout the year? Tap water from surface and ground water sources etc.
  • Your tap water is the baseline <"conductivity data"> range, and assuming that it is fairly consistent through the year? You look at <"differences from that range">. This is based on the assumption that the majority of the ions in tap water will be calcium (Ca++) and bicarbonate (2HCO3-) and these are not going to be heavily depleted by your tank inhabitants.
  • All I did initially was measured the conductivity while plants and livestock looked happy. I did this <"every month or so over a year"> and found that 80 - 150 microS was my <"goldilocks zone">.
It is a simple concept, you only feed the plants when their growth indicates nutrient levels have fallen to low to support any growth, you ensure that the <"oxygen supply always exceeds the oxygen demand"> and when the fish and plants in your aquarium are in good condition you measure the conductivity of the water, to give you a datum.

For my tanks (I keep Apistogramma etc.), I keep the water in the 50 - 150 microS range. I think Jordi ("Parotet") aims for about 400 microS.
It definitely isn't perfect, but it gives you some idea. I look on it very much like 5 day <"Biochemical Oxygen Demand"> (BOD), a broad brush, but useful.

I don't recommend BOD measurement, because it is the very opposite of "plug and play".
<"Standard Methods 5210B">. A sample is first analyzed and conditioned to ensure favourable growth conditions for bacteria, which may include adjustment for pH, neutralization of residual chlorine, and/or reduction of DO in supersaturated samples. The sample is then diluted and the appropriate amount of seed bacteria added. The initial dissolved oxygen content is recorded and the sample is then incubated for 5 days at 20°C. After the 5 day period, the sample is removed from the incubator and the final dissolved oxygen reading is taken. BOD is calculated from the DO depletion and volume of sample used following the formula below:

BOD5 = BOD mg/L = [(IDO -DO5) – seed correction] x dilution factor

cheers Darrel
 
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I've heard talk about increasing the ferts dose till the nitrate levels raises to 20ppm higher than the base line? Have you heard about this?

Sounds a load of rubbish to me!

Firstly we have no reliable way to measure nitrate levels on our tank water that accurately, so in reality we'll never know our nitrate levels unless we send a sample off to a lab for testing. Secondly I don't think plants particularly care what the long term equilibrium levels are, they'll adjust their function to suit. I've had tap water tanks with EI dosing that must have had very high long term equilibrium levels of NO3, and I've had tanks where almost all of the dosed NO3 is used up by the next dose day.

It's why I've never really understood the ongoing arguments between lean vs rich dosing, as both system tends to grow plants just fine in either scenario.

I've always looked at my TDS as a guide?

As do I, but not as any type of guide or assistance to fert dosing. I'm a huge believer in tank stability, so I want my TDS to be exactly the same every day and every week, as one of a number of indicators to tell me I'm achieving that stability.

I'm starting the week after a water change at 120-150TDS raising to 280 -320TDS by the end of the week, but I've been told this isn't a good way to know if I'm dosing enough ferts?

Surely there is something else going on there then, as that seems way too much of a TDS increase to be ferts alone? Do you have Seiryu stone or similar in the tank?

How do I know I'm dosing enough for my plants and what's too much?

You have a few options:

You can simply calculate it (use the IFC Calculator), and strictly dose what you calculate, and then have faith in those calculations - then you inherently know there are enough ferts in the system because you have ensured there are in your calcs (by ensuring an excess). This works unless you know you are dosing intentionally very lean, in which case you know you are already sailing close to the wind, and risk any one of those ferts bottoming out.

You can use test kits as an aid - now I know they are generally disliked on this forum, but I think they are sufficiently useful when used within their know accuracy (which is pretty coarse). For example I never use them to work out a absolute numerical level of an element in the water, all I want them to tell me is if I have a 'a lot', 'a little' or 'none'. Say with Iron for example, if the sample is dark purple I know I can dial the iron dosing back a fair bit, if the sample is perfectly clear I know the iron is bottoming out, if it has a little tinge of colour just before the next dose, I know I'm around about hitting my mark.

You can look at the plants. Darrels Frogbit Index (I refuse to reference the evil that is Duckweed) works very well, and I use it as an additional aid on my low tech tanks. On a high tech tank it can be too much of a lag - i.e. by the time you've spotted the change in Frogbit leaf colour, you can already get stunting and algae on other plants, which for me is too late (I'm for prevention rather than cure). On a low tech tank, that's not an issue, as the Frogbit, (with its free access to CO2) is usually fastest to react anyway.

Lots of co2

No, CO2 is something we can fairly accurately establish the levels of in our tank via drop checkers or pH meters, so we don't want 'lots' we want 'just enough' to hit our target. I'm no longer an advocate of 'lots of CO2', especially in a tank with livestock (if its just plants, fine blast away).

With the exception of some more difficult plants, I don't think the absolute levels of CO2 is always all that important - more important is both the short term (with the individual lighting period) long term stability of that CO2, which most plants will eventually adapt to.

Powerful lights

Definitely not - light is both the saviour and the devil. We can't grow plants without it, but too much of it, and we get nothing but problems. Light is the tanks accelerator pedal, so the harder you push it, the more strain you place of the rest of the system, and to more finely you need to tune the CO2 and fert dosing, CO2 application, flow and distribution etc etc to avoid problems. Take your foot off the gas by turning light levels down, and everything suddenly has much more wiggle room for error and adjustment.

Balancing light levels for the tank is in my view mission critical for achieving clean, algae free plant growth. Most people use far more light than necessary when they can have a much easier time of it dialling the lights down and getting slower, cleaner plant growth.

EI. Method

Which is just one of a number of prescriptive dosing methods - great for the beginner, as it's painting by numbers, and has worked well for thousands of tank. Eventually though, most aquarists will learn to dial EI down to levels they know suit their individual tanks.

Low number of fish

Meh! Where's the fun in that?! lol

I understand what you are referring to, in that lower fish numbers means lower organic waste, and that make life a little easier for the tank system - which is a fair approach.

Beyond that though, I reckon there are two types of aquarist on this forum; those that have fish to make their planted tanks look good, and those who have plants to make their fish tanks look good - I'm firmly in the latter camp!
 
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I've always looked at my TDS as a guide?
I'm starting the week after a water change at 120-150TDS raising to 280 -320TDS by the end of the week, but I've been told this isn't a good way to know if I'm dosing enough ferts?
Fertilizer build up can be determined by tds, although we don't always know which ions are contributing to said tds.
To do this we need a repetitive, stable (base) level; and an idea of what's been dosed in the tank.
If we can't achieve this, then tds is meaningless.

My tds is 112 and 139. Haven't checked this for weeks, but won't be far out 😀
 
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