Quarantine tank with an expensive dead fish. :(

[Zak Rafik]

Hi Everyone,🙂

I need your input and advice on how to go about setting up a quarantine tank and maintaining it when the fish are inside.

I bought 2 Zebra Otos (Zebra Otocinclu) and 4 Assassin snails for my planted tank and so I decided to quarantine them.

I have taken a photos of my Quarantine Tank (QT) setup. Please see below.


It consists of:

• 25 litres capacity (6.5 us gallon) tank BUT only used 16 litres of water.
• A single sponge filter.
• Water from the main tank.
• Some plant cutting from my main tank.

I had the sponge inside my Eheim external canister for beneficial bacteria growth and used the sponge to cycle the QT before adding the fish.

These are the step I have taken.

Before adding the fish.

1- Setup quarantine tank with 16 litres of water from my main tank and

single sponge filter.

2- Threw in some Water Wisteria plant cuttings of from the main tank.

3- Water parameters: Ammonia-0ppm, No2-0ppm, No3-10ppm. pH-6.4

4- Added API Quick Start about 3ml.

5- After 1 hour added EasyLife’s Liquid Media Filter about 5ml


Day 1 (evening)

1- Got the Oto fish and Assassin snails from the LFS.

2- Took out 50% of water from the plastic bag in which the fish were in and did

drip acclimatization for 2 hours.

3- Netted the fish with a quarantine tank dedicated fish net

4- Covered the tank’s side with black cloth to darken the tank.


Day 2 (evening)

1- Did a 50% water change with water from main tank.

2- Added API Quick Start about 3ml.

3- Added EasyLife’s Liquid Media Filter about 5ml

4- NO feeding for 24 hours


Day 3 (evening)

1- Fed some par boiled zucchini. Fish not interested in food.

2- Did a 50% water change with water from main tank.

3- Added API Quick Start about 3ml.

4- Added EasyLife’s Voogel about 3ml

When doing water change, noticed one of the Otos moving about slowly.


Day 4 (Today / morning)

Saw one of the Zebra Oto belly up and dead.

Quickly took a water check and the reading as follows:

Ammonia- 0.25ppm,

No2- 0.25ppm,

No3- 10ppm.

pH- 6.4

Did a 50% water change and added API Quick start to bring the Ammonia and No2 down.


During the past days, the 4 Assassin snails and the remaining one Zebra Oto were active and exploring the tank.

Now I want to ask the fellow members:
Does the quarantine cycle for the fish restart all over again?

How long does a typical quarantine cycle last for small group of small sized fish?

Is a single sponge filter enough for a 25 litres tank?

Should I have avoided the EasyLife’s Liquid Filter Media and Voogel although it was highly recommended for quarantine process?

I intend to get about 12 Cardinal Tetras and 6 Threadfin Rainbow fish.
Is the above tank enough for 18 fish to be quarantined together?

I have 4 normal Otos in the main tank, will these be enough to provide companionship to the now lonely Zebra Oto?

What could I have done to prevent the fish loss? Or did I take on a fish which is a challenge to keep in the first place.

Should I have used about 20 litres of water instead of 16 litres.

Only after buying the expensive Zebra Otos, did I learn that they are very sensitive to water parameters and can be a challenge even for seasoned fish keepers.

http://everydaygreen.hubpages.com/hub/The-Zebra-Otocinclus-Catfish

This is my 1st time running a quarantine tank and now I have got the jitters after this fish death.
Apologize for the lengthy post but I’m really nervous now on adding any new fish.

Thank you so much
Raffik


http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/QT-process-001_zpsaca6e7a2.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/QT-process-002_zps84032e30.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/QT-process-003_zps46fcf312.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/QT-process-004_zps6f07bcf7.jpg

 

[ian_m]

It's the ammonia (& nitrate), in fact any level of ammonia, that will have killed your fish. Ammonia & nitrite show you have not cycled the tank. The quarantine tank setup must be fully cycled, fish free, before it can be used (6 weeks), even using quick start will not speed things up substantially, though empty your wallet nicely.

I assume you are using water dechlorinator as any chlorine/chloramine in your water, whilst not good for you fish, will kill the bacteria in your filter, rendering the tank cycling back to day zero.

Things can do, is use 100% water from other tank & used filter media (with risk of carrying diseases over), however in my experience even doing so I have seen start to ammonia appear, especially if you have new substrate and décor.

Use frequent water changes (dechlorinated) and daily dosing AmQuel+ will keep ammonia at bay, if you have to emergency cycle a tank with fish in it. Been there done it, works. In fact you can use AmQuel+ as dechlorinator and ammonia remover.

But basically tank must be cycled 6 weeks of more before using.

 

[Zak Rafik]

Ammonia & nitrite show you have not cycled the tank.

I only use 100% water from my main tank where all readings are 0 ppm.

I assume you are using water dechlorinator as any chlorine/chloramine in your water,

I did not use any Seachem prime to dechlorinate the water as 100% of water in the quarantine tank is from from the main tank only. There was no need for any dechlorinators to begin with.

especially if you have new substrate and décor.

There is no substrate in the QT tank. Its a bare bottom setup. Please see photo.
As for the decor piece its used only during quarantine process.

But basically tank must be cycled 6 weeks of more before using.

Are you sure this is so for a quarantine tank with media and water from a disease free and good water parameters main tank?

Thanks
Raffik

 

[ian_m]

If it's not the chlorine/chloramine from water changes, you have fish killing ammonia (and nitrite from ammonia decomposition) from somewhere....therefore the tank is not cycled.

 

[tam]

It sounds like you did everything right, the sponge should have been colonised and been an instant mature filter. How long was it in your filter canister - maybe it wasn't long enough. Next time you could try running it as a sponge filter but inside you existing tank.

Have you checked your main tanks water as you're using that for changes?

I guess the other possibility is that the rise was a result of the dead body rather than the cause of the dead body. How is ammonia now? If it disappears again permanently that would imply a spike from the body. If you have an ongoing issue with it then the filter wasn't mature.

I've been told Otos can be quite sensitive and you're more likely to lose them during quarantine than many other fish. One issue with them is feeding - if you did it again I'd add sticking some pebbles in a bucket of water in the sun to grow some algae to the prep (though I doubt that was the issue here).

 

[BigTom]

I would leave off all the additives in future - if the filter media has been transferred from a mature filter then it should have sufficient bacterial load to cope with a couple of small fish. Adding QuickStart, Liquid Filter, Voogel and whatever else is just going to introduce instability and increase the biological oxygen demand of the system (which may in turn have caused the ammonia in the tank).

Speaking of oxygen, otos are rheophilic fish with relatively high oxygen demands, so make sure your little sponge filter is producing a decent amount of surface agitation - low O2 plus ammonia is certainly a combination that could have contributed to losing one of them. I wouldn't recommend quarantining all the other fish you mention at once with such limited filtration.

When setting up the QT again next time, I'd also move the filter media across a couple of days before you anticipate buying fish in order to give the bacteria time to stabilise - in the past I've noticed oxygen deprevation in quarantine tanks immediately after introducing a lot of bacteria.

That said, otos can be 'finicky' and you may just have got unlucky, especially if the fish were in poor health or not eating (always try and buy otos that have nice plump bellies as they sometimes struggle to eat properly after importation).

 

[Edvet]

Agree with Ian, ammonia/nitrite can be dangerous in a bare tank.
Why do you quarantine: to spot disease and to avoid contaminating other fish and to be able to treat the quarantine tank without treating the whole tank and destroying filterbacteria in that proces.
What do you expect from a quarantine tank: easy to maintain/clean, easy to spot the fish
What to do: get a tanksize which will give some stability to the water parameters (so i would have gone for something a bit bigger (50 x 30 x 30 cm)
I would have it running almost permanently to "prime" the filter, or have spare filters running on a spare tank (just some simple air driven sponge filter should do) you'll need a working filter, except when you have good quality water you can use (from tap if you are Lucky, or from a tank where fish are happy), then a daily 90% waterchnge can work too ( the way they keep and breed fish in exotic countries, no filter just huge waterchanges)
Just some basic hidingplaces, easy to remove and clean. I would add some plants, just some floaters or easy stems (hornwort or ceratopteris).These will use some nitrogen compounds, but large water changes or a functioning filter will be needed.
Important will be food, some apropriate live food is best. For a Otocinclus i would try to get some rocks/pebbles with some biofilm on it (put them in some shallow water in the sun/daylight, let them get some algae/slime, give a new one every day), most are severely underfed when you get them from the trade.

Me personally i never use quarantine.😱 I believe in adding fish to a stable environment with good food sources and stable waterquality (preferably from a reliable dealer and after carefull visual inspection). I will loose some individuals, but i will not treat the whole tank anyway except for treatment through the food. Feeding is the best way to give them disease resistance. I do know fish from large breeders have the risk of carying diseases ( fishtuberculosis and so) but these are hard to treat anyway.
For instance i bought a batch of Columbia tetra's which i presume to have been bred in Indonesia. I have been loosing individuals from this group steadily (one every three-four weeks with all the same symptoms), eventually they will be gone, but treating or quarantaining them would not have changed this.
For true quarantine you would need a large facility and outstanding lab facilities in order to do bacterial examination, research swabs and skin/gill scrapings, do feaces testing and pathology exams on dead fish.

 

[EnderUK]

I agree with Edvet, personally I have had nothing but trouble from quarantine tanks especially with Otos doing badly in them. If I was going to do a QT for otos again I would have in up and running for 2-4 weeks with high lights to get that algae going. My otos like your just plain ignored any food offered them. As soon as I gave up on the QT after an 5 out of 8 death ratio and put them in the main planted tank they got to eating and I only lost one after that.

 

[parotet]

My best bet for the moment has been to buy only fish that are on the LFS at least for some weeks (in one shop the arrival date is clearly shown on the label and on the other one I just ask). My features with new Otos has decreased significantly this way.
I have never used quarantine tanks...

Jordi

 

[tam]

Last time I bought two (healthy plump looking) Otos, I lost one and half of my other fish. I'm waiting to get more until I set up a quarantine tank.

i will not treat the whole tank anyway except for treatment through the food.

I don't think medicated food is available in the UK, as far as I know for antibiotics you need a prescription from a vet.

 

[Zak Rafik]

Hi Everyone,
Thank you so much for all your valuable input. Learnt allot from your replies.

....therefore the tank is not cycled.

How long was it in your filter canister - maybe it wasn't long enough.

If you have an ongoing issue with it then the filter wasn't mature.

I alway maintain a log on changes I make to the main tank and I just learnt that the sponge was inside the main filter for only 10 days. &
So I guess, I was basically not doing things the right way.😳
I wanted the Zebra Otos so badly, I was totally blind to this important procedure.
You know what they say "Love is blind"

Speaking of oxygen, otos are rheophilic fish with relatively high oxygen demands, so make sure your little sponge filter is producing a decent amount of surface agitation

After reading your tip, I did add an extra air pump into the QT tank and it did help. I noticed the Oto was more active and "happy".

Adding QuickStart, Liquid Filter, Voogel and whatever else is just going to introduce instability

But the these products have won awards.They can't be that bad.

Me personally i never use quarantine.

Your advice sounds radical😵

For instance i bought a batch of Columbia tetra's which i presume to have been bred in Indonesia. I have been loosing individuals from this group steadily (one every three-four weeks with all the same symptoms), eventually they will be gone, but treating or quarantaining them would not have changed this.

If I were in your shoes, I would be pushing the panic button left, right and center. Aren't you concerned that where ever is killing the new fish might spread to the other fish?

For a Otocinclus i would try to get some rocks/pebbles with some biofilm on it

If I was going to do a QT for otos again I would have in up and running for 2-4 weeks with high lights to get that algae going

Fantastic tip.

to buy only fish that are on the LFS at least for some weeks

Absolutely! Can't agree more. Thats why I pay a little more knowing that I'm getting healthy fish.
I have seen right in front of my eyes where very sick fish were bought by people just because they're cheap.

I don't think medicated food

I have read good reviews of New Life Spectrum THERA + range of fish food. Hope its available near your place.
http://nlsfishfood.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=60

Anyway, I had enough of doing water changes and testing for Ammonia, No2 and No3 everyday for 1 fish.
So I took the plunge and released the 4 Assisine snails and the lonely Zebra Oto into the main tank about 3 hours ago. So far he/she seems OK.

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/OTos-in-main-tank_zps336ceef4.jpg

Cheers
Raffik

 

[ian_m]

BigTom said:

Adding QuickStart, Liquid Filter, Voogel and whatever else is just going to introduce instability

But the these products have won awards.They can't be that bad.

Yes they are fantastic at getting those that don't know to part with their money. You had a cycled tank, none of these should have been necessary.

 

[Zak Rafik]

Yes they are fantastic at getting those that don't know to part with their money.

Hi 🙂
Even Voogel and Liquid filter which is touted as a "tonic" to keep the fish health and resistance to any disease?
http://www.easylifeint.com/freshwater/easy-life-fluid-filter-medium
http://www.easylifeint.com/freshwater/voogle


Whats your opinion about API's Zeolite Ammonia Remover or Seachem's Purigen? Are they any good for use in a quarantine tank (of course, after the tank has cycled) to remove ammonia?

Zeolite
(Zeolite Ammonia Remover is a 100% natural ammonia-removing medium for use in freshwater aquariums. It works well in both, newly set-up aquariums to help prevent new tank syndrome and in established aquariums to remove toxic ammonia.)
http://www.apifishcare.com/product.php?sectionid=1&catid=16&subcatid=90&id=562#.VCPQ4_mSx8E

Purigen
(controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds)
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Purigen.html

Thanks
Raffik

 

[Edvet]

Look at the tank you put them in, don't you think that has the best chances for them? Lots of O2, healthy clean water, even some detritus and biofilm to feed on. Far better thena quarantine tank with dodgy parameters on more stress due to small volume.
I think they have the best chance in a run in healthy tank, better then all kind of chemical substances to "help" them and make some money on the producers. Of course fish will die, but so will they in nature. A dead fish in my tank gets eaten in 24 hours if i miss it. Not saying i emulate nature, but i am not overly worried. And as i said quarantine to be usefull needs a hell of a lot more work then a separate tank. Correct diagnosis and correct treatment are neccesary.

 

[ian_m]

Can't comment on Voogel and Liquid filter, only can find Voogel skin care products in Google. 😀. As I said, they part you with your money, but at least you feel you have done something. If Voogel is a fertiliser (not skin care !!) then you are just paying for a few salts and a lot of water. Liquid filter is not necessary as you already have mature filter product available.

Zeilit does work, however you shouldn't really be getting into the situation in having ammonia and fish in the water at the same time. The ammonia will naturally, and at no cost to you, go away by itself if you are patient. On saying that I have (and also know people who have) used AmQuel+ in emergency situation.

Purigen works as well as a water polisher. I use it, works well. However really meant for matured tanks, not to avoid cycling tanks.

 

[Zak Rafik]

Far better thena quarantine tank with dodgy parameters on more stress due to small volume.

To tell the truth, I felt the same same way as you do and still do but when you read in books and on the Net, it seems quarantine is something that MUST be done or be prepared for doom.

A dead fish in my tank gets eaten in 24 hours if i miss it.

That's why I love Amano shrimps. They're like the Mafia guys. They get the job done quick and clean.

only can find Voogel skin care products in Google. .

Ok ok, my fault. Typo error.

I'm now kind of sitting on the fence.😕
I want to add 12 cardinal tetras and 6 threadfin rainbows to my tank. I intend to get it from a reputed LFS which I have frequented many times and have been impressed by it's healthy fish and clean tanks.
I can 90% be sure that their fish are in tip top condition.😎

BUT

On the other hand by not doing a quraninte, it feels like I'm playing Russian Roulette with my tank.

 

[ltsai]

I don't really quarantine mine but I do observe them for 24 hours before putting them into the main tank. Sometimes, I just dump them in.

So far no issues. *fingers crossed*

 

[Zak Rafik]

I don't really quarantine mine but I do observe them for 24 hours before putting them into the main tank. Sometimes, I just dump them in.

So far no issues. *fingers crossed*

Hi Itsai,🙂
How do you observe them before you put them in your main tank? Isn't that kind of quarantine. Does it not create more "stress" for the fish?😕
Where do you get your fish from?

Cheers
Raffik

 

[ian_m]

Years ago, when I kept fish and quarantine tanks weren't even thought of and fish quality & health was not so good as today, I used to dose the tank with anti-ich a week before & after I got new fish. Also used to dose methylene blue, but can kill filter bacteria, stain silicone and fish blue if not careful. This was because one could almost guarantee an ich outbreak every time one added fish, this dosing was recommended in my 1990's tropical fish book. The ich either came with new fish and change of conditions bought it out or was latent in my tank and got the new fish as they were stressed due to a change of environment.

However, I don't bother now, just let bag of fish adjust a while and let fish loose. All my current fish have come from the same shop, which keeps their tanks well looked after and they do quarantine all their new stock before sale.

 

[ltsai]

Well, technically is still a quarantine except I neither have the patience nor spare tanks for weeks of quarantine.

I sometimes don't even have a sponge filter running and no aeration. Sometimes just an air tube. All in a bucket.

I just make simple observations like whether they are still swimming around and not lethagic. Body is ok. Nothing abnormal on the body.