Plant growth issues

[Tom Raffield]

Happy New Year everyone; all the best for 2018!

I posted back in September on this thread (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-else-can-i-try-becoming-distraught.50130/) and noticed a huge improvement following your guidance. The only thing I have yet to change is the big one, a new filter to swap out the internal Juwel for a Fluval FX6.

In recent weeks, pretty much since winter really kicked in I have noticed a number of issues with my plants:

1) The black stuff is back on some leaves! (see photos).
2) The swampweed (hygrophilia polysperma) at the back of tank started to die (?) off. Leaves had multiple holes and then shredded. I cut the swampweed back to base and it has started to regrow but much more slowly. I had tried to prevent the issue with new root tabs but to no effect.
3) My java fern, along with the black stuff, has started to show brownish blotchy markings on the leaves (see photos). The plants in the middle are also showing browning leaves and black edges.

On a positive note the crypts, monte carlo carpet, other algaes and water clarity has been great.

I have included a whole tank photo too. Not much has changed in my routine since I made changes in the other thread so I am a bit lost as to what the cause could be.

I still maintain a 50% water change weekly, dose macro and micro ferts from Aquarium Plant Food at about 25ml on alternate days, run the arcadia tubes for about 5 hours a day (up from 3.5), clean the substrate that I can reach, clean filter media and clean impellers etc once a month. My CO2 is consistent and keeps my drop checker in the green. I also only feed my fish and shrimp once every two or three days.

Any suggestions as to what I should try? The black stuff is an annoying pain and could be phosphate excess from what I have read? Is the browning a ferts issue? Should I add some root tabs for the java ferns? Is it not enough light now that it is full on winter? Should I buy new swampweed and replace the one I hacked back?

Thanks in advance everyone.

 

[Tom Raffield]

Just a thought:

My leaves that died off (Indian swampweed) started with holes and are also showing signs of growing curled up. Could this be a low nitrate issue?
The brown spots and browing of leaf edges could be a ferts issue. I am adding some root tabs today as I realised I hadn't topped them up in well over 9 months! Ooops! I hadn't put it on my scheduler.

I purchased the Fluval FX4 today and am in the process of sorting it out and changing all my Juwel filter media to the new one.

 

[Edvet]

Forget phosphate excess, i would add some more ferts for a week or 6 and see if that changes the situation. If not more CO2 and distribution.

 

[ceg4048]

My leaves that died off (Indian swampweed) started with holes and are also showing signs of growing curled up. Could this be a low nitrate issue?
The brown spots and browing of leaf edges could be a ferts issue. I am adding some root tabs today as I realised I hadn't topped them up in well over 9 months! Ooops! I hadn't put it on my scheduler.

These are all symptoms of CO2 deficiency and have nothing to do with nutrients.

Cheers,

 

[Tom Raffield]

Thanks for the heads up on CO2. I really thought I had sufficient CO2 in the tank with the bubble checker being light green at the appropriate times. I am dosing approx 5-8ml of liquid carbon each day too alongside the gas. Should I be upping my gas input and liquid inputs?

With my new Fluval FX4 in place I removed my Hydor Circulation pump to save wires and plugs behind the tank (it used to be on the left hand wall of the tank in the photo). Should I be putting this back in the tank somwhere? I have a smaller-hydor circulation pump too.

 

[ceg4048]

Hello,
There are as many ways of inducing poor CO2 as there are the number of hobbyists. It would only be guesswork if we were to say unilaterally that you should increase this or that without first understanding the sequence of event in the tank as well as understanding your methods. It could easily be, for example that your injection rate is sufficient, but that your flow rate or flow distribution method is faulty. Also, it is unclear what you mean by dropchecker being green at the "appropriate times". What kind of water is in the dropchecker? Is it light green at lights on? What type of lighting are you using, i.e., stock lighting that came with the tank or so-called "upgraded" lighting system? What is the position and orientation of the filter outflow?

There are too many unknowns to suggest an effective strategy at this point.

Cheers,

 

[Tom Raffield]

I appreciate there are loads of factors so will try and help out a little.

- T5 iQuatics tubes used x 2 (one tropical and one aqua blue, upgraded from Juwel tubes) with relfectors
- 5 hour photoperiod (on at 3pm and off at 8pm)
- Pressurised CO2 (on at 1:30pm and off at 7:30pm), light green in colour at lights on but need to ensure this is happening as not checked in a while.
- Running at approximately 6 bubbles a second.
- Liquid Carbon (8ml daily)
- Micro and Macro ferts (20ml on alternate days)

- Drop checker filled with tank water situated half way down left tank wall.
- Fluval FX4 now in tank (Juwel removed last week). Water outflow into tank is on the left, one nozzle aims towards the front of the tank, the other along the back wall. Water outlet to the filter is on the right.
- JBL CO2 diffuser/reactor used (30cm in height) and is placed next to the outlet to the filter where the Juwel internal filter used to be.
- No water circulation pump, taken out last week when Fluval went in, was a Hydor Koralia.

 

[ceg4048]

Hi,
Thanks for the additional data, greatly appreciated.
Your first mistake is the use of tank water in the DC. This almost always gives a false high reading. The DC is a poor enough tool even when used correctly. It's a disaster when used improperly. The DC should always be filled with a distilled or RO water adjusted to dKH 4. In that way the only acid present in the sample is due to CO2. Tank water contains acids not related to CO2 which will tend to drive the bromothymol blue into the green. So the DC is tellin you there is more CO2 than there really is. There are plenty of 4 dKH water sold by our sponsors or available elsewhere. However, the best method for troubleshooting is to perform a pH profile as discussed in https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/getting-the-best-co2-circulation-in-a-trigon-190.51389/#post-506927

As with the tank water in the DC, you can get away with this for awhile (it worked well for the carpet) but it can catch up to you eventually:

Water outflow into tank is on the left, one nozzle aims towards the front of the tank, the other along the back wall. Water outlet to the filter is on the right.

In order for the energy of your filter flow output to be at their maximum effectiveness you should have all the filter nozzles along the back wall pointing straight ahead at the front glass. With this particulra filter model, that may not be possible but at least they should all be grouped at the center of the back wall near the top. Please review the thread https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-flow-in-the-planted-aquarium.1167/ for more insights.

JBL CO2 diffuser/reactor used (30cm in height) and is placed next to the outlet to the filter where the Juwel internal filter used to be.

This is also a bad idea. your would do well to port the gas directly into the inlet of the filter, not the outlet. CO2 is difficult enough to dissolve into the water before escaping out the top. If you can route the gas into the filter, you will retain more gas as it travels along the path. A tank size of 260L is too large to make an internal diffuser effective. You should definitely invest in an inline reactor, such as an UP Atomizer. For the moment, you can get a simple ceramic disc type diffuser and port the bubbles into the inlet if your JBL cannot perform the task.

You can help your cause by temporarily disabling one of the light bulbs, or, if not possible, remove or disable the reflector(s). This will reduce the CO2 demand, and since you are suffering a CO2 supply problem, this is a logical measure to take. After you resolve the issue the plants will be able to cope with the extra light.

Cheers,

 

[Tom Raffield]

Wow, thanks Ceg.

That is some really detailed and useful information.

- I will do some research into the correct water for the drop checker, I had no idea about that!
- The filter nozzle is stuck on the left hand side of the tank due to limitations of the tank design but I can angle both nozzles at the front wall.
- I think I may have confused you with my wording. The JBL reactor is on the right of the tank next to where the water is removed from the tank by the filter and is no where near the nozzles where water enters the tank from the filter. The reactor can be removed if need be, I might even be able to extend the black CO2 tubing straight into the filter out take. If not then I should be able to get a small ceramic diffuser and place it directly under the out take so that bubbles are immediately sucked in. Would this be ok for now? I can research some inline reactors.
- I didn't even think that the new reflectors would cause problems. I can easily unclip these as I can not remove a tube as with the hood it is both or none.

So do you believe that none of the issues are ferts related? I do use root tabs and dose liquid ferts as mentioned. I would have hoped that would max out available nutrients in the water and with my 50% changes reset each week.
Should I put one of my Hydor Koralias back in again? If so, where do you think would be best.

 

[ceg4048]

So do you believe that none of the issues are ferts related?

Correct. As you mentioned in the other thread, you are dosing EI so there is not any deficiency, but CO2 is always a problem and the symptoms you described are all CO2 related.

Should I put one of my Hydor Koralias back in again? If so, where do you think would be best.

It certainly wouldn't hurt. The best place would be on the center of the back wall near the top pointing straight at the front glass.

I might even be able to extend the black CO2 tubing straight into the filter out take. If not then I should be able to get a small ceramic diffuser and place it directly under the out take so that bubbles are immediately sucked in. Would this be ok for now?

Yes, this is fine. Hopefully, your filter swallows the bubbles and does not burp too much. That is the only trouble with direct port injection. Cavitation of the impellers can sometimes be problematic so the bubbles need to be as small as possible.

Cheers,

 

[Tom Raffield]

So today I started making the changes you suggested.

- Reflectors are out.
- Timers on CO2 and lights are accurately set to give enough time for the CO2 to build up.
- Circulation pump is back in the tank.
- All water flow into the tank now aiming at the front glass (Fluval nozzles and Hydor Koralia).
- 4 dKH water (and solution) all in one is on order.

Going to do some research into an inline diffuser or other forms of reactor for my CO2 to maximise the amount I can get into the water column. The JBL tower reactor will have to do for the next few days.
Random idea! What if I added some CO2 tubing on top of the JBL tower (which usually vents into the water column and surface) and directed that back down into the Fluval filter. The photo shows the tower. Thoughts?

 

[Edvet]

Maybe look into crafting a DIY reactor and working this on a separate pump?

 

[Tom Raffield]

Maybe look into crafting a DIY reactor and working this on a separate pump?

Are these easy to create? Would a purchased reactor be easy to fit into the Fluval hosing which is ribbed?

 

[ceg4048]

What if I added some CO2 tubing on top of the JBL tower (which usually vents into the water column and surface) and directed that back down into the Fluval filter.

Hi Tom,
If the vented gas in indeed CO2, and if there is a significant amount then this would be a good idea but might look messy. It's up to you. These in-tank contraptions are inelegant as well as inefficient. There are a few threads in the DIY section on how to build simple DIY external reactors so have a search. If the commercial versions do not fit your tube size then you can cut the tube and insert a PVC "Y" junction with associated fittings to accommodate the reactor. It's a fiddly job, but if you are a good DIY'er then either option is a piece of cake.

Cheers,

 

[Tom Raffield]

Hi all,

I have opted for a bazooker atomiser as it seemed the easiest option. I have placed it directly below where the water is sucked out of the tank to the filter. The atomiser is creating a very fine mist of bubbles.

However, for some reason I can not increase the bubbles per second even if I adjust the JBL regulator. It seems stuck at 1 bbs and as such there is not enough carbon dixoide getting into the water. Could this be a pressure issue? The regulator is set at about 1.2 bar (suggested pressure for the bazooker is 2 bar). I have never adjusted a regulator before but can't think what else to adjust. I doubt there is a leak as I have checked all the tubing and one-way valves.

Any thoughts?

 

[G H Nelson]

Depends what JBL regulator you have Tom as there are adjustable and non - adjustable models!
Post a picture if you can!
hoggie

 

[G H Nelson]

Adjustable


Not adjustable

hoggie

 

[Tom Raffield]

Depends what JBL regulator you have Tom as there are adjustable and non - adjustable models!
Post a picture if you can!
hoggie

Thanks Hogan. I have the top one in your pictures. With the two gauges which are directly opposite each other. Do you think it could be a pressure issue? Any ideas how to adjust the regulator pressure? All the stuff I have is in german as I bought it online!

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi
Remove the little black plastic cover which is in the centre of the picture!
Find a Allen key that fits the centre adjuster!
Engage the regulator/solenoid to release Co2!
To adjust the working pressure turn the key and the dial will move!
hoggie

 

[ceg4048]

Also check for leaks along the entire circuit using washing up liquid.

Cheers,