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Photoperiod v intensity (yes this again 😂)

Sammy I

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12 Mar 2019
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Hertfordshire
Sorry to start another one of these threads but I'm about to set up my new scape, and during my binge of aquascaping content I heard something on the Aquarium Gardens channel that was different to the general consensus from when I had my last scape so I would like to hear people's thoughts.

So in the video George Farmer was discussing a jungle island scape with Dave, and Dave mentioned that he has a new way starting a scape (lighting wise). He said that he started the tank off at 100% brightness but only for 4 hours a day (not sure what light it was maybe ADA so not dimmable), and gave the plants a rest (no lights) like once a week. His findings were that the plants adapt faster to the lighting level and are growing at their full potential (of the light) and there was less of an ugly algae phase than the conventional way of starting at 50% intensity and then ramping up over a month or so.

Has anyone that has had multiple scapes tried different approaches and what were your findings? What would you do now, if starting another scape?
 
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I haven't tried that approach. I currently have an ADA Solar RGB which is not dimmable. I've got it at 100% intensity for 7 hours a day.

I've got the top surface covered by floating plants and will need to do 3 water changes a week for next two months until plants settle in. It's coming to three weeks this week and I've had melt on the Buces and one Crypts. I put this down to the lighting intensity as initial melt hasn't been this bad previously for buces.

I also had pinhole within the means which is usually associated to lower co2 in comparison to the high lighting. That's probably down to issues with the co2 injection, I ended up switching to my normal regulator after 5 days of persistence issues.

I'll know the full impact of my choices in a few weeks time lol. Less margin for error at full intensity.

Live pictures as of right now
20241216_154712.jpg20241216_154821.jpg
 
I run my tanks with a 12 hour photoperiod, as this is essentially (if not less) than what they'd likely receive in their natural habitat.

Depending on co2 levels, this factors into the light intensity afforded.

Ideally, id ramp up for 4 hours, cruise for 4, then down for 4.

I like to enjoy my tanks at most times during the day, I'd rather have lower lighting for longer, than the other way around.
 
Hi all,
I like to enjoy my tanks at most times during the day, I'd rather have lower lighting for longer, than the other way around.
Same for me. I think <"Christel Kasselmann"> @Christel is another long day, less intensity advocate <"Flowering Bucephalandra">.
Hi, I have been a passionate plant aquarist for more than 45 years. All my 11 plant aquariums with in total 4000 liters have a day length of at least 12 hours of lighting, as I cultivate many species and I use an average value for the day length. There are species such as Anubias, Bolbitis, Bucephalandra that grow in the tropical rainforest and they have a slightly shorter day length due to the shading of the trees. Therefore, it is possible to cultivate Bucephalandra even with 10 hours of day length. But even the first and last hour of the day there is still a weak daylight in the rainforest. You can learn a lot from nature .......
Because it is difficult for us to<" judge light intensity">, I'm always worried about dipping under the Light Compensation Point (LCP) requirement, so I always like to make sure I have enough light and then I can use floating plants as a net curtain <"The levers of a balanced low energy tank">.

Basically "too much light" (duration and / or intensity) may lead to problems down the line, but is recoverable, but "too little light" is an absolute and total disaster, it is back to the <"triage argument">.

I've probably never had a light that would allow me to go full <"Klingon">.

cheers Darrel
 
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I run my tanks with a 12 hour photoperiod, as this is essentially (if not less) than what they'd likely receive in their natural habitat.

Depending on co2 levels, this factors into the light intensity afforded.

Ideally, id ramp up for 4 hours, cruise for 4, then down for 4.

I like to enjoy my tanks at most times during the day, I'd rather have lower lighting for longer, than the other way around.
I am no expert. And I am not about to declare the black and white truth.

My experience is that less than 6 hours is not enough for most plant species, more than 10 is unnecessary for most and may cause algae problems.

My thinking, no more than that, is that some house/garden plants need a long day and full sun, like one of my absolute favourites Californian poppies, some however, need shade Hostas, some need less intense heat Dahlias, and some need heat but at least tolerate, a shorter day, peppers. And of course some need good strong light but not summer sun, but will tolerate the cold, the crocus and daffodil. Plant daffodils under evergreen shrubs and they die slowly. Some plants like their feet, sorry roots in wet mud, purple loosestrife, some perish in wet soil lavender. Cacti need heat, dryness and lots of intense light.

Unlikely that a random pick and mix of aquatic plants from different continents and different latitudes and different water qualities will thrive in a 'one size fits all'.

Blasting CO2 certainly helps - I like to think of it, non scientist that I am, like oxygen to those who are seriously ill. You can eve get bucephalandra to do something weird and flower under water if you hit it with enough CO2.

Shade loving plants hate my tank, algae take advantage of them anubias, bucephalandria and to lesser extent java fern and some species of crypt. Some of the big companies tell me these are easy plants and that Rotala macrandra is hard, the latter loves my main tank so long as keep the light really high, ferts low, use plenty of CO2 and don't let the water hardness become excessive.

The plants we use come from tropical and subtropical regions, some are used to quite long days of light 12-14 for part of the year others are equatorial 12 hours of light, little by way of dusk and dawn, so the latter don't appreciate ramp ups and downs. I have experimented with ramp ups and ramp downs, it might help balance out CO2 but generally enough light and enough CO2 and you get pearling, a good sign but not the 'win win' some think it is, because of course, green algae love CO2 and light and can pearl to compete with the best of higher plants.

Hornwort - what a star of a plant - loves hardwater, modest temperatures, and will keep pearling with low CO2 and intense light 16 hours a day. Will shade plants and will suck up excessive nutrients, it was for years highly recommended by Dennerle for the early stages of a tank, which for me is 3 to 6 months.

Good luck, hope my little thoughts based on experience are thought provoking - over to the real experts.
It rains a lot in the tropics, there are cloudy days and many plants experience shade from overhanging trees, one size, cannot fit all, that is my theory.
 
A short intense photoperiod does makes sense in some ways esp in a CO2 enriched tank with a stable [CO2] for the lighting period

Chatting with Clive (aka @ceg4048 ) he pointed out that in a an CO2 enriched tank with high light after 4-5 hours the plants had had their fill of light so after this period the CO2 could go off and lighting the tank longer than 4-5hrs was for viewing pleasure only.

Longer lighting than is necessary only gives algae a better chance of getting going, which is why some professional aquascaper have their tanks in dark rooms/cellars so they can fully control the background light and photo period.

A stable [CO2] for the intense lighting period with good flow would be the key IMO/IME, pearling from leaves should be avoided and only seen when light flow is off, as from experience heavy pearling my look impressive but the pinholes and melt that follows takes time to recover from

1734370834917.png
I did manage to melt many plants and recover from my experiments with intense lighting Olympus is calling - If I repeated the experiment with the Maxspect Gyres the outcome my off been different 🤷‍♀️
 
pearling my look impressive but the pinholes and melt that follows
I stress I am no scientist, but I have seen healthy plants pearl in rivers in the summer and the hornwort and egeria in my ponds pear in the sunshine in the summer, no pinholes.

Even my crypts pearl, 7 years in the tank, no pinholes no melt. If Rotala macrandra doesn't pearl it gets infested with algae, again I stress, in my tank. Lots of algae species will take advantage of weak dying leaves and low light. Duration is I think a very complicated issue, with, winners and losers in the plant world.

I think the species is possibly the key here, both in terms of intensity and duration, and certainly shade plants should not be exposed to light so intense other plants are pearling, hence my issues with anubias, it hates my tank.
 
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Same for me. I think <"Christel Kasselmann"> @Christel is another long day, less intensity advocate <"Flowering Bucephalandra">.
I am firmly in the long hours +12h at low(er) intensity camp. I want to enjoy my tanks for as many hours as possible during the day and evening. What actual intensity you need to maintain is sort of a moving target depending on plant density as the tank grows in, type of plants, coverage of the light panel and tech level. There are no magic "percentage" - the percentage % depends on the output of LED panel relative to the specifics of the tank - with a very powerful panel you may find 25% being too much... or with a weak panel 100% to be too little. The best measurement we have is PAR which can be hard to manage and interpret - and of course require an expensive bit of equipment. Best approach might be to start somewhere where the light level seems reasonable to your eyes, dial it down a bit, see how the plants reacts and slowly increase or decrease over time.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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I am firmly in the long hours +12h at low(er) intensity camp. I want to enjoy my tanks for as many hours as possible during the day and evening. What actual intensity you need to maintain is sort of a moving target depending on plant density as the tank grows in, type of plants, coverage of the light panel and tech level. There are no magic "percentage" - the percentage % depends on the output of LED panel relative to the specifics of the tank - with a very powerful panel you may find 25% being too much... or with a weak panel 100% to be too little. The best measurement we have is PAR which can be hard to manage and interpret - and of course require an expensive bit of equipment. Best approach might be to start somewhere where the light level seems reasonable to your eyes, dial it down a bit, see how the plants reacts and slowly increase or decrease over time.

Cheers,
Michael
Your two points match my experience exactly there. As plant density increases you may need more light, species of plant is also a huge issue.

I think in terms of what looks bright, most folks with no experience underestimate the light they need, many more experienced folks over-estimate. However, George Farmer ran a couple of nano tanks under very high lighting which had him admitting he needed to think again. They worked remarkably well.

I would also make the distinction between the standard light fittings today compared to the relatively recent past (with top rated manufacturing firms) and the needs of red and carpeting, high demand plants.

With my first Juwel tank, admittedly a few decades ago, two fluorescent tubes were factory fitted, I had to buy the rather expensive extra bit of kit then available and run four tubes to grow more challenging plants in hard London water. Move on to T5 tubes, and four tubes were too hot, I have no idea if the light intensity was too much, the four tubes overheated the tank. Come LEDs and the fitted two LED tubes work a treat for most plants.

A tank I bought in the mid 1980s - I know, I'm not a newbie - came with one one inch diameter tube, on a 15 inch rear to front tank. I bought one, then later another, domestic warm white tubes from Woolworths, it transformed the growth in my tank. My first tank, 1960s had one standard tube and again didn't really grow much more than duckweed. My then teenage friend in the 1970s grew Indian Fern by the bucket load, literally, bucket fulls of the stuff, with two full length one inch diameter tubes on a 12 inch front to rear tank. He was the envy of my tropical fish club. He gave Indian Fern away to awe struck adults.

I would normally say, if a tank is less than 18 inches deep, 12 inches rear to front two T8 tubes, 18 inches 3, 24 4 tubes, with T5 tubes less tubes, but never easy to know how many fewer. With LEDs things become so much harder to work out because the Lumen to watt output varies and the cheaper LED bars are often even on a 40-44 inch long bar only 30 or 40 watts, good luck getting anything but algae and maybe some species of crypt to cope with that. Again, only in my experience, I am not a scientist.

A long photo period works a treat with CO2 injection and certain species of plants, some species in my experience however, literally, close-up for bedtime after roughly 8 hours. And, if your tank gets hit with sunlight, typically early morning or late afternoon, having the lights and CO2 kick in will definitely reduce algae issues. But then with no CO2 I found the siesta useful, probably because it balanced out the amount of CO2 in the water column. Irrelevant, if not positively harmful once CO2 is injected.

I use a lot of light, currently 260 watts on a 4 foot tank, it is no algae feast, but sometimes when plant density gets high, I use 310 plus, I time an extra light to come for several hours during the middle of the photoperiod but I also do have to turn up the CO2 to compensate/match the extra intensity.

I think the answer to the original question is not actually, at all simple. And you are right there is no magic percentage. PAR is as you said problematic to measure and I find that colour temperature isn't always quite what I want, too much blue/purple in the spectrum on some aquarium dedicated products, which reminds me of the old Triton T8 tubes, advertised as break through but relatively quickly discontinued. Everybody I knew had algae issues with them, I think they were too blue, I doubt they were much more intense, I don't think the technology allowed for that. And as for the old Grolux tubes, useless on their own but actually quite useful when combined with more intense tubes of daylight spectrum.

I look forward to the views of the more scientifically trained.
 
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Seems like this is a hot topic 😂
A short intense photoperiod does makes sense in some ways esp in a CO2 enriched tank with a stable [CO2] for the lighting period

Chatting with Clive (aka @ceg4048 ) he pointed out that in a an CO2 enriched tank with high light after 4-5 hours the plants had had their fill of light so after this period the CO2 could go off and lighting the tank longer than 4-5hrs was for viewing pleasure only.

Longer lighting than is necessary only gives algae a better chance of getting going, which is why some professional aquascaper have their tanks in dark rooms/cellars so they can fully control the background light and photo period.

A stable [CO2] for the intense lighting period with good flow would be the key IMO/IME, pearling from leaves should be avoided and only seen when light flow is off, as from experience heavy pearling my look impressive but the pinholes and melt that follows takes time to recover from

View attachment 224968
I did manage to melt many plants and recover from my experiments with intense lighting Olympus is calling - If I repeated the experiment with the Maxspect Gyres the outcome my off been different 🤷‍♀️
This is what I've read many many times and that the 1st half of the photoperiod is most important and should be the most stable.

But the video got me thinking, in terms of a new scape with new plants, what do we think about 100% for 4 hours to begin with, and when everything is established then increasing the photoperiod incremently to say 7-8 hours total with ramp up/down?

Would this be more beneficial to the plants in the short term (first month) rather than starting at 50% and ending at 100% after 5 weeks? As I understand it every time you change something such as light intensity, the plants have to adjust/adapt to the new conditions and essentially playing catch-up....
 
100% for 4 hours to begin with
I honestly cannot say, but I think this may well work.

I am definitely of the view that a long photo period, if plants are newly planted and CO2 isn't adequate, water column macro nutrient levels are high etc., there will be problems.

I have never found high light intensity to be an issue in at tank with injected CO2. Without CO2 yes strong light can be problematic. But I really don't know if 4 hours is enough, but Dave from Aquarium Gardens is generally pretty sound. But some plants are definitely shade lovers, no doubt about that.
 
I am no expert. And I am not about to declare the black and white truth.

My experience is that less than 6 hours is not enough for most plant species, more than 10 is unnecessary for most and may cause algae problems.

My thinking, no more than that, is that some house/garden plants need a long day and full sun, like one of my absolute favourites Californian poppies, some however, need shade Hostas, some need less intense heat Dahlias, and some need heat but at least tolerate, a shorter day, peppers. And of course some need good strong light but not summer sun, but will tolerate the cold, the crocus and daffodil. Plant daffodils under evergreen shrubs and they die slowly. Some plants like their feet, sorry roots in wet mud, purple loosestrife, some perish in wet soil lavender. Cacti need heat, dryness and lots of intense light.

Unlikely that a random pick and mix of aquatic plants from different continents and different latitudes and different water qualities will thrive in a 'one size fits all'.

Blasting CO2 certainly helps - I like to think of it, non scientist that I am, like oxygen to those who are seriously ill. You can eve get bucephalandra to do something weird and flower under water if you hit it with enough CO2.

Shade loving plants hate my tank, algae take advantage of them anubias, bucephalandria and to lesser extent java fern and some species of crypt. Some of the big companies tell me these are easy plants and that Rotala macrandra is hard, the latter loves my main tank so long as keep the light really high, ferts low, use plenty of CO2 and don't let the water hardness become excessive.

The plants we use come from tropical and subtropical regions, some are used to quite long days of light 12-14 for part of the year others are equatorial 12 hours of light, little by way of dusk and dawn, so the latter don't appreciate ramp ups and downs. I have experimented with ramp ups and ramp downs, it might help balance out CO2 but generally enough light and enough CO2 and you get pearling, a good sign but not the 'win win' some think it is, because of course, green algae love CO2 and light and can pearl to compete with the best of higher plants.

Hornwort - what a star of a plant - loves hardwater, modest temperatures, and will keep pearling with low CO2 and intense light 16 hours a day. Will shade plants and will suck up excessive nutrients, it was for years highly recommended by Dennerle for the early stages of a tank, which for me is 3 to 6 months.

Good luck, hope my little thoughts based on experience are thought provoking - over to the real experts.
It rains a lot in the tropics, there are cloudy days and many plants experience shade from overhanging trees, one size, cannot fit all, that is my theory.

I am no expert. And I am not about to declare the black and white truth.

My experience is that less than 6 hours is not enough for most plant species, more than 10 is unnecessary for most and may cause algae problems.

My thinking, no more than that, is that some house/garden plants need a long day and full sun, like one of my absolute favourites Californian poppies, some however, need shade Hostas, some need less intense heat Dahlias, and some need heat but at least tolerate, a shorter day, peppers. And of course some need good strong light but not summer sun, but will tolerate the cold, the crocus and daffodil. Plant daffodils under evergreen shrubs and they die slowly. Some plants like their feet, sorry roots in wet mud, purple loosestrife, some perish in wet soil lavender. Cacti need heat, dryness and lots of intense light.

Unlikely that a random pick and mix of aquatic plants from different continents and different latitudes and different water qualities will thrive in a 'one size fits all'.

Blasting CO2 certainly helps - I like to think of it, non scientist that I am, like oxygen to those who are seriously ill. You can eve get bucephalandra to do something weird and flower under water if you hit it with enough CO2.

Shade loving plants hate my tank, algae take advantage of them anubias, bucephalandria and to lesser extent java fern and some species of crypt. Some of the big companies tell me these are easy plants and that Rotala macrandra is hard, the latter loves my main tank so long as keep the light really high, ferts low, use plenty of CO2 and don't let the water hardness become excessive.

The plants we use come from tropical and subtropical regions, some are used to quite long days of light 12-14 for part of the year others are equatorial 12 hours of light, little by way of dusk and dawn, so the latter don't appreciate ramp ups and downs. I have experimented with ramp ups and ramp downs, it might help balance out CO2 but generally enough light and enough CO2 and you get pearling, a good sign but not the 'win win' some think it is, because of course, green algae love CO2 and light and can pearl to compete with the best of higher plants.

Hornwort - what a star of a plant - loves hardwater, modest temperatures, and will keep pearling with low CO2 and intense light 16 hours a day. Will shade plants and will suck up excessive nutrients, it was for years highly recommended by Dennerle for the early stages of a tank, which for me is 3 to 6 months.

Good luck, hope my little thoughts based on experience are thought provoking - over to the real experts.
It rains a lot in the tropics, there are cloudy days and many plants experience shade from overhanging trees, one size, cannot fit all, that is my theory.

This is why its good to select species such as plants and fish etc from similar locales, as its easier to tailor to specific needs.

Its very easy to want a piece of everything though, like being in a sweet shop, which adds layers of complexity.
 
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