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Pale (white tips) on plant leaves

Soilwork

Member
Joined
22 Nov 2015
Messages
558
Hi all,

I’m having issues with pale plant leaves. They almost look white. No pics at the moment I’m afraid.

Was wondering which deficiency this is only im dosing EI (but changing lots of water) the strange thing is the plants seem to green up after the water change but after a couple of day (with EI) they start to go pale again. Particularly the Eleocharis.

I am dosing 2.5ppm magnesium as opposed to 5ppm as I thought the amount of Mgso4 required for my container looked a tad ludicrous so obviously I need to start there but my tap water is <1.5ppm Mg so that would not explain the temporary greening if Mg was low. I also have 11ppm calcium. Is this enough if only supplied is water changes? I have calcium chloride. I just get worried about the amount of chlorides and sulphate I am adding.

Could this be insufficient iron uptake due to lack of Mg etc?

I am using aquarium plant foods trace mix but use Rotala butterfly to calculate for EI. I know that Mn seems quite low in APF trace mix but I thought Mn was immobile and this would not explain the greening and whitening.

Im just not sure what causing this.

Thanks

CJ
 
I would start by uping your mg level to recomended levels. You need to add alot of mgs04 to get decent mg levels in the water column.
When i was doing EI i was adding 72g mgs04 to my mix🙂.
 
Hi CJ,
Just exactly how much of what are you dosing and are you using RO water?
It's very difficult for other people to know what's going on when the OP claims EI (or whatever) dosing. I have no idea what "use Rotala butterfly to calculate for EI" means, so this is really confusing and requires clarification.

Also, your title implies "white tips" which, normally, is typically attributed to low Ca, but your description discusses "pale leaves" which is something completely different. Are the leaves just pale or are they translucent?

All micronutrients are immobile, so there is no point getting wrapped around the axle. Either you are missing some nutrient or another. There is no blocking of this due to too much that. It doesn't work that way at all.

You don't need a lot of Mg. It only requires a non zero value to be effective.
It's possible that your micro mix is a dud and contains only inert materials. Have you tried a different mix. just to confirm?

Cheers,
 
OK, it's a calculator. That's fine.
So that means there ought not to be any deficiency due to low dosing.
If that's the case then it would have to be a flow/distribution issue, and of course, CO2 is always a suspect.
Still need to see photos though. Very easy to get off on the wrong track...

Cheers,
 
I would start by uping your mg level to recomended levels. You need to add alot of mgs04 to get decent mg levels in the water column.
When i was doing EI i was adding 72g mgs04 to my mix🙂.

Thanks I will try this and report back
 
Hi CJ,
Just exactly how much of what are you dosing and are you using RO water?
It's very difficult for other people to know what's going on when the OP claims EI (or whatever) dosing. I have no idea what "use Rotala butterfly to calculate for EI" means, so this is really confusing and requires clarification.

Also, your title implies "white tips" which, normally, is typically attributed to low Ca, but your description discusses "pale leaves" which is something completely different. Are the leaves just pale or are they translucent?

All micronutrients are immobile, so there is no point getting wrapped around the axle. Either you are missing some nutrient or another. There is no blocking of this due to too much that. It doesn't work that way at all.

You don't need a lot of Mg. It only requires a non zero value to be effective.
It's possible that your micro mix is a dud and contains only inert materials. Have you tried a different mix. just to confirm?

Cheers,

Ok I’m hearing you so no antagonism or synergism etc. As alluded to rotalabutterly (I think this was ‘wets’ calculator from way back) is a popular calculator that’s being looked after by some other dudes now. I use this for all my calcs.

I don’t dose calcium and I’m at half EI (2.5ppm 3 x week) for Mg according to the calculator. NPK are at EI levels as per your article.

The micro mix targets 0.2ppm fe and the other micros fall where they may based on the composition http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/chelated-trace.html

No RO water it’s all tap https://www.unitedutilities.com/ser...quality-search-results/?postcodeField=OL9+9DG

I had not considered a duff mix, I didn’t know that was a thing and I have had it for quite some time. I do have easy life profito which I could use targeting the same 0.2ppm as of tomorrow.

I can upload some pics tomorrow. I did increase my co2 today when I got home because I’m agitating the surface more now via a spray bar which sits a long the back wall, full length. Filter is Fluval 106 on an 85 litre tank. And I skim the surface due to biofilm build up so this adds extra flow in the same direction as the spray bar. I’ll upload a video of the flow pattern tomorrow.

I do have algae problems I believe due to reduced everything co2, ferts etc. Since upping these plants have responded well but so had the algae that was there. Mainly BGA. I was turning it over and trying to siphon it off but this only brought more crud up to the surface of the substrate which I think is what has spawned BBA. BGA is dying I think. Since I added the skimmer and increased aeration it doesn’t seem to like that. Even the BBA is starting to look unhealthy (if that makes sense)

So add more Mg and start using profito. And upload some videos/photos as of tomorrow?

Cheers
CJ
 
It's very difficult to analyze a tank from hundreds or from thousands of miles away. Even if I was just next door I wouldn't know what you did (or didn't do) or in what sequence it was done or wasn't done over the past few weeks.
All we have to go on is hopefully an accurate description, the effects that we can see and our current knowledge of cause and effect.

Also, I try to convince folks that deficiency is related to algae. Deficiency causes algae.
I'm in no way admonishing you, but instead, it's for anyone who reads this thread who also may encounter problems in that you report the paleness of leaves outside of the context of the algae, when in fact they probably are related. This is what I mean about getting off track. It would have been better if you reported all the other symptoms in addition to the pale leaves because they could easily be related.

Here's what I mean:
BGA is cause by poor NO3 uptake and is sometimes related to organic waste buildup in the filter.
BBA is cause by poor CO2. I know there is a thread around here which has about 30 pages and guys talking about bacteria and all that. Trust me. it's a CO2 issue.
Surface scum/film is caused by any combination of poor overall nutrition and poor CO2.

Looking at your water report, I can see that this is soft water that although is high in Fe and Mg, is very low in NO3, so it's almost exactly like using RO.

We don't know what level of lighting you have - and that is probably one of the most important pieces of information because if you decide to lower the dosing, in combination with poor nutrient poor water and marginal flow/distribution and if you concurrently have strong lighting, then the deck is really stacked against you, because all of these things are bad and are cumulative.

So I perceive that you have a global problem. I think it unlikely that just adding more Mg will arrest these issues.
I think you need to take a more holistic approach. The pale leaves might actually be the least of your problem.

I normally target at least 0.5ppm Fe. I've dosed up to about 9-10ppm Fe without any problems = except that it was expensive, so I stopped and called it good.
I'm not sure why you would be cautious about Chlorides and Sulfates in your water. They are micronutrients in small doses and innocuous in larger doses. I see no reason to fear these.

Looking at Amazon.co.uk, I see that the Fluval 106 has a rated flow of 550LPH and your 85L tank ought to have a total flow rating of 850LPH - but again, this is just a suggestion, however, the symptoms described is indicative of low flow, especially if it is filled with ceramic or sintered glass media. Perhaps you have supplementary pumps but haven't mentioned it? In any case it may not be required but it's something to think about at least.

If you're getting excessive surface scum then this could get ugly. In general, therefore, without actually being able to examine the tank, I would say that you need to:
1. Stop doing half of whatever dosing you are doing and do a full dosing regime,
2. Reduce the lighting if possible and
3. Ensure a lime green DC by lights on,
4. Continue the large and frequent water changes (don't forget to dose after the changes)
5. Supplement the CO2 injection with liquid carbon if possible.
6. Clean the filter if it has not already been cleaned.
7. During water change, if you can get the water low enough, you can pour some NO3 directly on the areas which have chronic BGA and let it marinate there for 10-15 minutes. Pale leaves are also a symptom of poor Nitrogen so KNO3 is an important weapon in your arsenal.
8. Consider a small supplementary pump to help augment flow..

Cheers,
 
Thanks Clive.

The thing is I do understand all of this information as I’ve lurked here for quite some time. I am an advocate of good flow, good oxygen and low dissolved organic levels but have only really been practicing this of late.

I should mention that the filter is new. I had previously been running the JBL 1501e which is rated at 1400lph but it was just too strong. In between this (before I purchased the Fluval) it was just the ehiem skim 350 (300lph) and I suspect this is where my problems began. Around this time I was no where near EI and co2 was low. Plants where just completely stagnated and just melted. I admit, it’s the nutrients I have been fearing and I needed to let go. The algae hasn’t just appeared but it is now taking advantage of the extra nutrition. I am certain the BGA has a dying. Whether this is due to an increase in nitrates, higher flow levels, better gas transfer or a combination all. The main thing is the plants are responding positively.

Now, in conjunction with the Fluval 106 I am using the ehiem skim 350 which adds a further 300l/h and I’ve got the output facing the same way as the filter spray bar. Flow is actually well covered now and oxygen levels should be better. Co2 on the other hand may need looking at so I will monitor this. As I mentioned it was turned up further yesterday. I have not been using a drop checker so will add that back when I get home.

Lighting two t5 bulbs with reflectors. I don’t know if this is high output or the PAR rating. It was a cheap fixture as I didn’t like the washed out colours from the chihiros A-series (which does pack a punch) I ordered the new fixture to come with a lower K rating for colour but it came with marine bulbs. I think it’s adequate if not a little too much for my current co2 levels.

I don’t have a lot of plant mass either which I am working on. I do have easycarbo so I can add some of that too. I purchased some more nerite snails yesterday to help with the algae and I’m looking to get some Amano shrimp too.

Regards

CJ
 
you can pour some NO3 directly on the areas which have chronic BGA and let it marinate there for 10-15 minutes.

Clive
I've not come across this before ! whats the science behind it if you don't mind 😉 Plus what concentration would you advise, when you say pour I take it a good spray would also achieve the same result.

TIA
Zeus
 
KNO3 is an harassment to BGA according to Barr, nothing special. He didn't really specify any numbers. Any amount you throw at it will harass it. This is a bacteria, remember? Yes you could mix a concentrated amount in a spray bottle but there is little point. If you have access to an area during water change it's just as easy to put the powder directly on the spot and scrub. But that's for extreme cases. For normal cases one just needs to increase the KNO3 dosing.

I should mention that the filter is new. I had previously been running the JBL 1501e which is rated at 1400lph but it was just too strong. In between this (before I purchased the Fluval) it was just the ehiem skim 350 (300lph) and I suspect this is where my problems began.
Aaargh :banghead:...CJ, when you discover that your filter is too strong there is no need to buy another filter. Too much flow is a good problem and is easy to fix without spending money. There is a simple principle of hydraulics that is normally a problem for most folks, but in cases like this, can be used to advantage:

When you have flow of any fluid (gas or liquid) through piping, whenever the cross sectional area of the pipe is reduced within the circuit there is an exponential reduction in the mass flow rate. This means that a small reduction in the diameter of the pipe causes a large reduction in flow.

So for example, say the inside diameter (ID) of the output spud on your JBL is 16mm which, according to them produces 1400lph (which is a bogus number by the way, but that's an argument for another day). If you then took your 16mm ID tubing and attached a connector that had an ID of 12mm, look what happens -
The formula for cross sectional area of a circle is Pi*R^^2 so for the 16mm diameter spud:
(3.14)*8mm^^2 = 201 sq.mm
For the 12mm ID connector (3.14)*6mm^^2 = 113 sq.mm

The flow rate loss will be, more or less, proportional to the reduction in the cross sectional area. So forcing the flow to squeeze through a 12mm restriction from a 16mm tube results in almost a 50% drop in LPH.
This is an oversimplification because it really is related to the amount of kilograms of water per hour lost, not really liters per hour, but you get the drift.

This problem occurs all the time when people attach an external reactor to their filter circuit and they don't realize that the reactor spud is smaller than their filter outlet spud, so they unwittingly reduce their flow rate massively and then run into problems. The same is the case if the Spraybar ID is smaller than the filter output spud ID. Anywhere in the circuit where the cross sectional area is reduced will reduce the flow.

So in your case, all you really needed to do was to use a thinner spraybar or use a hose barb plus smaller tubing to reduce the flow. It was not necessary to spend money for another filter.

I admit, it’s the nutrients I have been fearing and I needed to let go.
Yes, the tighter you allow this fear to grip you the more control of the tank will slip away. I've been seeing this for over 20 years mate.

I have not been using a drop checker so will add that back when I get home.
You can use a DC, or a better way is if you have a decent pH pen you can monitor the difference in pH from gas on to lights on. It's a much easier and more accurate way to do it, but yes, the DC helps to give you a clue. Make sure that you use distilled water adjusted to 4dKH, otherwise you will always get a phony reading. Do NOT use tank or tap water.

Flow is actually well covered now and oxygen levels should be better.
Flow by itself does actually improve Oxygen levels. In an unplanted tank, in order to replace the Oxygen consumed by the fauna we need to agitate the surface via bubbles to allow atmospheric Oxygen to more quickly penetrate the water. In a planted tank, the plants and algae generate the Oxygen and improve the water column content. The flow then helps to distribute the Oxygen. Too much surface agitation actually dissipates both the Oxygen as well as the CO2, which is needed by the plants to produce Oxygen.
At night, the plants and algae have a net consumption of Oxygen and in so doing actually compete with the fauna for Oxygen.




Lighting two t5 bulbs with reflectors. I don’t know if this is high output or the PAR rating. It was a cheap fixture as I didn’t like the washed out colours from the chihiros A-series (which does pack a punch) I ordered the new fixture to come with a lower K rating for colour but it came with marine bulbs. I think it’s adequate if not a little too much for my current co2 levels.
This chart is floating around in a few places and is a fairly good guide for non-LED fixtures. Again, nothing is super accurate, just a guide.
You can follow the curve labeled T5HO and follow it to the distance from the bulb to the substrate. So lets say your substrate is 20 inches from the bulb. In that case you will be generating about 60-70 PAR and this is considered medium which is in the pink band. When you have poor CO2 and poor nutrients you really want to stay out of the yellow band, and you will have faster recovery if you stay in the blue band. If you have two bulbs then you multiply the PAR number by 2.

As you can probably guess, most people are way in over their heads and are using too much light. Whn you have Algae and CO2 problems, the first thing to do is to disable at least one bulb if you have multiple bulbs or find some way to reduce the PAR. Reflectors add about 20% to the PAR numbers.

parforvariousbulbs-jpg.jpg


I don’t have a lot of plant mass either which I am working on. I do have easycarbo so I can add some of that too.
I wouldn't worry too much about your plant mass. You need to fix the mass that you do have. If you don't fix your problem then you will waste money buying more mass because they will melt too. Add Easycarb every day, maybe even twice the bottle sugested, especially when you do a water change. Some plants don't respond well so just be careful. BBA do not like Easycarb so you can use this as a weapon. If you double dose you will likely see the BBA turn pink after a few days or so.

I purchased some more nerite snails yesterday to help with the algae and I’m looking to get some Amano shrimp too.
Well, my philosophy is that animals do not help you to fight algae. Algae is indicative of a fundamental infrastructure problem that you must fix using policies (such as not fearing nutrition) and using technologies that are effective. Also, putting more animals in the tank, especially those that are extra sensitive to things like Gluteraldehyde bombardment and CO2, is counterproductive. Sorry, I don't like this idea at all. Fix your problem first, then add your animals.

Cheers,
 
Ok Cheers Clive. Believe it or not I’ve been round the block a few times re forums and I do have a decent grasp of the vast majority of the fundamentals. It’s the nutrients that have been killing me mainly because of all the toxicity data of late. That’s why I reduced everything. I’ve been experimenting with low nutrients and it really hasn’t worked. Not with my current light levels anyway.

As for the JBL. My profession uses theory’s based on flow and cross sectional areas but in a gas and electronics sense so I do realise I could have adapted things but I found there were other drawbacks about have such a large heavy canister in a small cabinet. Cracking filter though.

I’ve made some changes based on your advice. Like i said, plant wise things have been positive. I double dosed Both macros and micros tonight and added the drop checker albeit midway through the photoperiod. The DC was a nice green at lights out so I suspect it will be lime tomorrow when it gets the full run in.

What are your thoughts on high CEC substrates such as Eco complete. I wonder if they sequester many of the micro nutrients in a negative way initially. Since my plant mass is low the ‘dead space’ between plants is high is it possible the majority of the metals just sit on ecocomplete particles not really doing much until root interception?

I ask because of threads like this

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/#/topics/1092474

Cheers
CJ
 
Believe it or not I’ve been round the block a few times re forums and I do have a decent grasp of the vast majority of the fundamentals. It’s the nutrients that have been killing me mainly because of all the toxicity data of late. That’s why I reduced everything. I’ve been experimenting with low nutrients and it really hasn’t worked. Not with my current light levels anyway.
Well mate, I do believe it, but I also know that every week someone comes up with a new marketing idea, and a popular strategy is first to make your audience afraid of some fantasy boogie man and then to offer a solution so that the audience is more willing to buy the product or idea to protect themselves from that boogie man. This latest fear of nutrients scaremongering isn't new. It was around in the early 1990's. Excess nutrients were believed to be the cause of algal blooms and toxicity to fauna. That's how the PPS dosing scheme became popular. The idea was that you would constantly test and monitor your water so as to keep your nutrient levels between some minimum and maximum range. I remember being completely stressed out over my NO3/PO4 values and actually losing sleep over it. It was surreal. Then Paul Sears and Keving Conlin came along and they discovered that NO3 was not as bad as previously thought, but that PO4 was a culprit. They are the ones who discovered that Dupla Drops was nothing more than KNO3, K2SO4 and some trace elements. Dupla Drops was sold in an eyedropper sized bottle and was hideously expensive. I remember calculating the per Liter price to be somewhere around £800, but prior to Sears & Conlin no one knew what was in it, but there was plenty of evidence that if you dosed these magic drops your tank did really well.

I think they used some version of a mass spectrometer and so they realized that this stuff was nothing more than what you could find at the nearest garden center at a fraction of the price. They just copied the recipe based on the results and thus was born the Poor Man's Dupla Drops (PMDD) which they had to re-nam Poor Man's Dosing Drops so that they wouldn't get sued. I think Dupla is still selling this stuff for a similar price. Unbelievable. That's how absurd The Matrix is CJ. It just isn't real.

You can still find the musings of Sears and Conlin on the ancient website called The Krib https://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/sears-conlin.html

A few years later Tom Barr discovered that in freshwater PO4 does NOT cause algae and so he modified the recipe to what we now know as EI.

I think it's important to know the history of things because it gives context to what we "know" now. Who knows what we will "Know" tomorrow....

As for the JBL. My profession uses theory’s based on flow and cross sectional areas but in a gas and electronics sense so I do realise I could have adapted things but I found there were other drawbacks about have such a large heavy canister in a small cabinet. Cracking filter though.
OK, well sure, if it's a matter of fit or of finish, then I can see why you'd need to replace it. Just a shame that you couldn't use it because I think it would have given you more margin of error.

What are your thoughts on high CEC substrates such as Eco complete. I wonder if they sequester many of the micro nutrients in a negative way initially. Since my plant mass is low the ‘dead space’ between plants is high is it possible the majority of the metals just sit on ecocomplete particles not really doing much until root interception?
Mate, you need to forget about all of that. There is no penalty for high CEC. Again, this is all some made-up techno-babble, probably in an attempt to scare folks enough that the perpetrators will be able to re-introduce undergravel heating cables.

I assume you have a well paying job. if so, yeah, Ecocomplete will be fine, even though it is obnoxiously overpriced, because it's just clay, or basalt, or whatever fashionable material The Matrix is offering these days. It's never a bad thing to have a substrate with high CEC, but again, it's never something that will make or break a tank unless you decided that water column dosing is not a good thing. In that case, ADA Aquasoil will be about 100X better choice because Aquasoil is packed with nutrients and Ecocomplete is not (or may have trace amounts of Iron, which is negligible in the grand scheme). I haven't used Ecocomplete in about 10 years but choice of substrate in an EI tank was never something worth worrying about - except for it's outrageous price. Find a bonsai nursery and buy their cheapest version of Akadama.

If you dose the water column then it really won't matter how much CEC is in the substrate. We've summed it up more or less in the short thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/flora-max-v-eco-complete.13801/


Cheers,
 
I think it's important to know the history of things because it gives context to what we "know" now. Who knows what we will "Know" tomorrow....

:thumbup: and if it was the Matrix I would go for the 'Plants by Clive' upload second after 'Jujutsu' 😉
 
I think Clive wears a Guy Fawkes mask in his spare time :lol:

I hope that remark does not fall foul of any political restrictions imposed by the forum administration :nailbiting::angelic:
 
Last night I made a mistake. I wanted to add some calcium just because it’s the only thing I don’t really add. Since my tap is soft an all didn’t think it would hurt.

Whilst using the Rotalabutterfly calculator I accidentally forgot to select the litres option. My target was 25ppm calcium from calcium chloride. No real reason for the chosen amount. Anyways turns out you need a lot of calcium chloride to raise the calcium content by 25ppm in an 85 gallon tank. So for my 85 litres I just raised the dgh (according to the calculator ) by 13dgh in one fell swoop. 70+ ppm calcium and 170+ ppm chlorides. I currently only have 2 harlequin rasbora and some nerite snails. No harm done yet and non to the plants. Will have to see what the situation is when I get home.

Time to bring out the distilled vinegar and bicarbonate of soda. Those calcium deposits are going to be a pain.
 
Hi CJ,
I see no cause for concern. You can always do a water change it you're having second thoughts but it really is no big deal.

Cheers,
 
Hi

All looks well if I’m being honest. TDS is up at over 400ppm as a result but if anything fish seem more active.

I’m struggling to upload photos with my iPhone. The extension is not allowed. Any ideas?

Thanks CJ
 
.jpg, .tif and .png are the norm, or if you have the file already uploaded to another site you can just right click and copy the url. If you click the "image" icon in the tool ribon you can paste the url in the box and it will appear inline.

Cheers,
 
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