Inked_aqua
Member
Nice! following this one
-
You are viewing the forum as a Guest, please login (you can use your Facebook, Twitter, Google or Microsoft account to login) or register using this link: Log in or Sign Up
New Decade, New Decadence...
- Thread starter Geoffrey Rea
- Start date
Oh dear, buckle up... I think there are many roads to Rome Dean. The goal in my head is simple though, get the plants to the point they’re pouring out oxygen throughout the photoperiod and make that the standard as quickly as possible. It’s a good generalisable goal, healthy tanks consistently have above adequate levels of o2 available over 24 hours for the ones I’ve measured... That is my definition of a healthy system and during the startup period it isn’t happening without your help.
There’s a ton of assumptions operating here that need clarifying though, so let’s unpack it a bit.
Start with water. This is the recent full tap water report here:
In an ideal world these would be consistent parameters, but maybe it’s not sometimes. But I have faith in the testing methods of the water company infinitely more than hobby grade test kits in general. For argument sake let’s just say they’re accurate for our purposes for the majority of the year, historically they haven’t changed much year to year. These are the parameters of the water being put in, maybe there’s something important to those parameters, open to discussion.
However, in 28 days of changing 215 litres per day this totals 6020 litres put through this recent 300 litre tank at startup. If we went descending, week 1 daily (1505 litres), week 2 every other day (645 litres), week three twice (430 lites) and week 4 once (215 litres) then it would be 2795 litres total. How much decay can we remove with those 3225 additional litres? How much more efficient is the system having that decay/proteins/carbohydrates removed daily? How much less pressure is that on bacteria/archaea whilst surface area is being populated? I’m positing a lot of questions because quite frankly I don’t know the answers, nor do I need to, but removing workload from the system whilst it’s getting on its feet seems beneficial from experience and lowers oxygen demand - hence just go daily for four weeks then handover. That’s the first bit of what I consider a beneficial practice at startup.
Generally though, the first point is you’re consistently removing waste that would otherwise be in the system using up dissolved oxygen and the second is you’re bringing the parameters back to a standard point everyday as much as possible until the tank doesn’t need that intervention. 28 days of this seems to be enough.
On top of what is in the tap water we have rich substrate. Choose your poison here, this one is an ADA system but that is what was in the shed. Use other brands and grind up root tabs on the base glass, use rich soil and cap it with sand, whatever. Point is there’s access to substrate based nutrients. This just leaves three things to input daily into the water column during startup:
- a potassium source e.g. potassium sulphate
- a minor amount of micros
- Co2
Just to be clear we’re heavily planting here with a mixture of fast and slow growers. It’s important there is a tank full of plants as a requisite to going high light from the get go otherwise why are we inputting so much nutrition in the substrate? Using all that light and banking that much in nutrient storage assumes you want rapid growth of lots of plants at startup to get out of a trouble prone period of a tanks life with poor dissolved oxygen levels. We use all those plants for the oxygen factories they are to get to that above adequate o2 as a standard. During startup we can make up for them not quite performing yet by running night time aeration for a continual top up of gases at atmospheric equilibrium.
So simply @Deano3 I see no downsides to flushing the tank thoroughly for the first 28 days and prefer a fixed level of light to work with for my goals, it also makes setting Co2 much more simple as well.
Water changes at the same time each day, I do those in the morning before the Co2 clicks on. Plants are then growing in as consistent parameters as possible. In the 28 days the glass got wiped twice. Pipework/lily pipes cleaned at the end of startup, along with a clean out of the filters, change out the prefilter sponge and floss. That’s it for general maintenance in month one, but perhaps the important bit is removing any stray leaves floating about as and when - lighten the load any way possible.
Deano3
Member
- Joined
- 8 Feb 2012
- Messages
- 2,485
Thanks for that very helpful write up, it obviously works wonders i may try this way next time as when its written down like that and you see the volume of water compared to the other way it
it makes sense.So basically for month one apart from changing water and wafting plants and maybe wipeing glass once or twice thats it ? No long filter sessions or anything until end of the 28 days, and you said you dose some micros and pottasium and get the co2 dialled in (i still struggle with this got my drop checker lime green when co2 on 3 and half hours prior to lights but getting more yellow by time goes off)
Very helpful Geoffrey thanks mate
Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
Pretty much Dean. The water is so hard here that for all intents and purposes it’s stable. It puts the initial high ammonia levels to bed and shifting the volume through has also shifted all the tannins out and water is extremely clear now too.
Geoff said!
But perhaps the important bit is removing any stray leaves floating about as and when - lighten the load any way possible.👍
But perhaps the important bit is removing any stray leaves floating about as and when - lighten the load any way possible.👍
Six weeks
Big change of heart with this setup. It has been transitioned to RO since the last post targeting GH5 / KH1 as the starting point. Coupling this with very lean dosing, daily 3.4ppm K and Fe EDTA 0.06ppm. Water changes are 40% weekly. The rest is dependent on the substrate and feeding of the livestock. We’ll see how it performs.
Big clear out of stems, particularly the Murdannia where it’s been thinned out to a tenth of what had grown in as it went rampant. Here’s half from the left side:
Fresh tops planted with side shoots present. Good flow established through the back corners again. H’ra, Rotala green and Arcuata cut back to below two inches, tops disposed.
Carpet had a trim as well. See what new growth under these parameters looks like. Particularly keen to see what can be done with Arcuata and Macrandra in this tank. The pogo erectus had also stalled prior to the change in parameters.
On a separate note... The wife asked for a lamp on the computer desk now that the kids are being homeschooled... Roger Roger 10-4.... Not what she was expecting but everyone is a winner so no foul:
Little ten litre test tank. Also RO remineralised with inert substrate, five days old. Bit of freedom to have a play with parameters outside of the 1200 and to get use out of a new set of milligram scales (old one finally quit).
All in all looking for a happy medium with parameters in the 1200 to grow the majority of species in good form for the longer term more slowly.
Looking for a backdrop of stems in great form and colour at the back of this scape. Will let things settle in for a while before making any further adjustments.
Big change of heart with this setup. It has been transitioned to RO since the last post targeting GH5 / KH1 as the starting point. Coupling this with very lean dosing, daily 3.4ppm K and Fe EDTA 0.06ppm. Water changes are 40% weekly. The rest is dependent on the substrate and feeding of the livestock. We’ll see how it performs.
Big clear out of stems, particularly the Murdannia where it’s been thinned out to a tenth of what had grown in as it went rampant. Here’s half from the left side:
Fresh tops planted with side shoots present. Good flow established through the back corners again. H’ra, Rotala green and Arcuata cut back to below two inches, tops disposed.
Carpet had a trim as well. See what new growth under these parameters looks like. Particularly keen to see what can be done with Arcuata and Macrandra in this tank. The pogo erectus had also stalled prior to the change in parameters.
On a separate note... The wife asked for a lamp on the computer desk now that the kids are being homeschooled... Roger Roger 10-4.... Not what she was expecting but everyone is a winner so no foul:
Little ten litre test tank. Also RO remineralised with inert substrate, five days old. Bit of freedom to have a play with parameters outside of the 1200 and to get use out of a new set of milligram scales (old one finally quit).
All in all looking for a happy medium with parameters in the 1200 to grow the majority of species in good form for the longer term more slowly.
Looking for a backdrop of stems in great form and colour at the back of this scape. Will let things settle in for a while before making any further adjustments.
Lovely....tanks!😀
DTM61
Member
Wow, are you trying to get very soft water then harden it later, Geoff? My readings are lower than that and I'm trying to harden the water for fish.
Unbelievable what you've done in six weeks mate, I think you belittle your intelligence and make it look easy. It's not that easy for most and your success lies in your experience. A credit to you. 👍
Thanks folks.
Just trying to find what works @DTM61 The majority of species in there thrive just fine in the very hard tap here. But this time around it would be nice to throw some species in that are a little more tricksy for a stretch. The first three I would like to get growing well repeatedly in softer parameters are Ludwigia arcuata, Eriocaulon cinereum and Rotala macrandra. All three I’ve had mixed results with before now and would like to understand a little more what makes these species tick. Can try out more as time marches on. The big one is growing under nitrate restriction, this was never happening using tap, it was just descending throughout the week from water change to water change. It worked okay though for a compromise.
They are doing alright @CooKieS and the algae problems have been predominantly on the hardscape so far. Did have a flare up of Staghorn after softening the water but it’s easily cleared off the rocks. Most of the rocks that are showing are freestanding and can be taken out to clean up if needed.
Do love Green Neons in larger numbers mate and like to feed them well. Trying to incorporate that into nutrient input. Then there’s the pooping aspect to attend to.... now that there’s no sand being periodically removed along with all their poop should really exchange that maintenance time with hoovering the hair grass with the spare filter stuffed with floss.
Cheers @hogan53
The AS600 Cryptocoryne setup for the White Clouds is running pretty much maintenance free so can focus more on the 1200 and little test tank.
Just trying to find what works @DTM61 The majority of species in there thrive just fine in the very hard tap here. But this time around it would be nice to throw some species in that are a little more tricksy for a stretch. The first three I would like to get growing well repeatedly in softer parameters are Ludwigia arcuata, Eriocaulon cinereum and Rotala macrandra. All three I’ve had mixed results with before now and would like to understand a little more what makes these species tick. Can try out more as time marches on. The big one is growing under nitrate restriction, this was never happening using tap, it was just descending throughout the week from water change to water change. It worked okay though for a compromise.
They are doing alright @CooKieS and the algae problems have been predominantly on the hardscape so far. Did have a flare up of Staghorn after softening the water but it’s easily cleared off the rocks. Most of the rocks that are showing are freestanding and can be taken out to clean up if needed.
Do love Green Neons in larger numbers mate and like to feed them well. Trying to incorporate that into nutrient input. Then there’s the pooping aspect to attend to.... now that there’s no sand being periodically removed along with all their poop should really exchange that maintenance time with hoovering the hair grass with the spare filter stuffed with floss.
Cheers @hogan53
The AS600 Cryptocoryne setup for the White Clouds is running pretty much maintenance free so can focus more on the 1200 and little test tank.
2 months...
Going low even on RO:
New RODI unit has worked out a great investment being much faster and efficient.
Feels like the tank is getting somewhere now. There’s a few bare spots left to try out some different plants but will get the stems some height and coloured up first. Arcuata is improving since dropping KH and GH. Planted some Pogostemon helferi just over a week ago but it’s looking a bit ropey. As is the Bolbitis difformis, hasn’t grown at all beyond a few small roots attaching since startup. Will give them both some time.
Can begin regular pruning in earnest this month and shape things out. Pinch the Pinnatifida leaves to get them small and tight for starters.
Hope everyone is staying safe and well.
Going low even on RO:
New RODI unit has worked out a great investment being much faster and efficient.
Feels like the tank is getting somewhere now. There’s a few bare spots left to try out some different plants but will get the stems some height and coloured up first. Arcuata is improving since dropping KH and GH. Planted some Pogostemon helferi just over a week ago but it’s looking a bit ropey. As is the Bolbitis difformis, hasn’t grown at all beyond a few small roots attaching since startup. Will give them both some time.
Can begin regular pruning in earnest this month and shape things out. Pinch the Pinnatifida leaves to get them small and tight for starters.
Hope everyone is staying safe and well.
In-tank is currently sitting at 2KH 5GH.
Half time change out...
Species out:
Cyperus helferi
Monosolenium tenerum
Murdannia keisak
Vesicularia ‘Creeping Moss’
Species in:
Hydrocotyle tripartita
Pogostemon helferi
Rotala macrandra
The Cyperus helferi was adding nothing and getting blasted with co2 mist made the tips prone to BBA.
The Monosolenium tenerum has won the worst plant choice award though, never kept it before. Only had to look at the stuff and it exploded into hundreds of pieces all over the tank. Will be removing bits of it over the coming months no doubt.
Murdannia keisak was growing rampant so had to go, too much hassle and the Vesicularia ‘Creeping Moss’ became a poop magnet beyond anything sensible to maintain so it’s been cut too.
Macrandra in and the entire back left has been brought back to a low height so it grows in together:
Also brought the back right stems down at the same time, replanting the tops to keep flow around the tank even.
The tripartita is hidden under the pinnatifida, so should creep out in random places. The helferi wasn’t in best health going in. Will see if it makes it as one clump and will disperse it once established if it does.
See how it grows in but should be a more appropriate planting with lots of colour. Never too late to change your mind.
Hope you’re all enjoying your weekend 😉
Species out:
Cyperus helferi
Monosolenium tenerum
Murdannia keisak
Vesicularia ‘Creeping Moss’
Species in:
Hydrocotyle tripartita
Pogostemon helferi
Rotala macrandra
The Cyperus helferi was adding nothing and getting blasted with co2 mist made the tips prone to BBA.
The Monosolenium tenerum has won the worst plant choice award though, never kept it before. Only had to look at the stuff and it exploded into hundreds of pieces all over the tank. Will be removing bits of it over the coming months no doubt.
Murdannia keisak was growing rampant so had to go, too much hassle and the Vesicularia ‘Creeping Moss’ became a poop magnet beyond anything sensible to maintain so it’s been cut too.
Macrandra in and the entire back left has been brought back to a low height so it grows in together:
Also brought the back right stems down at the same time, replanting the tops to keep flow around the tank even.
The tripartita is hidden under the pinnatifida, so should creep out in random places. The helferi wasn’t in best health going in. Will see if it makes it as one clump and will disperse it once established if it does.
See how it grows in but should be a more appropriate planting with lots of colour. Never too late to change your mind.
Hope you’re all enjoying your weekend 😉
aquascape1987
Member
This really looks amazing. Out of interest, how quickly did you ramp up the photo period after planting? I’m assuming that you haven’t used a dimmer because of the use of ADA lights?
Six hours, 100% from the first day @aquascape1987 . Do note the daily WC’s for the first month and ADA substrate system though.
aquascape1987
Member
Wow, so never any increase on 6 hours?
Not really found any benefit going over six hours for the goals set here. Have run longer photoperiods in the past though.
aquascape1987
Member
Well I think the results speak for themselves here. Looks great Geoffrey 👍
