Lighting vs Filtering

[Baatar]

Hi,

I am new to this forum, but I have been following many discussions on different topics on this and other forums. Despite having some understanding of what it takes to maintain a healthy tank I hope (learning from experts such as Clive and others), I am still uncertain about some issues and decided to post. Hope this is not going to be a long reading, but please bear with me. My questions are on lighting, filtration/flow, maintenance in general, thus apologies in advance if this is posted in under wrong thread.

What I learned/understood so far:

1. There are no such things as low, medium or high light plants. However, each plants have their minimum light requirement (forgot the right terminology) to start photosynthesis. (NB: maybe, this is something to keep in mind instead of a strict rule to follow?)

2. All plants (submerged) can grow under any lighting conditions. The higher the light intensity (and the duration for that matter) the speedier plant growth (not necessarily to be equated to healthy plants), thus higher the demand for CO2 and nutrients that needs to be met, but margin of error decreases. Thus, making WPG, light luminosity, spectrum, colour etc. etc., completely irrelevant.

3. Any algae is opportunistic, ready to predation subject to plants' health, which in turn depends on lighting/CO2/nutrients/flow balance/adequacy, where maintaining sufficient level of CO2 is the most challenging among all. Thus, algae occurrence mostly depends on plant health, and is not attributable to phosphates, nitrates, nutrients, high lights etc (although these might be the case on some setups).

Problem: Persistent re-occurrence of diatoms on everything and GDA on glass (although not too dramatic but unpleasant to look at)

My setup and equipment:

1. Portuguese Aquatlantis 110 litres (medium but tall) tank, with dimensions 75x35x45 cm (LxWxH), running for 7 months.

2. Eheim Biopower 240 filter (https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/technology/internal-filters/biopower-240), with stated output of 750 LPH. I am aware of the 10x rule for flow/circulation, which with this filter puts me in 5x range (assuming the actual real life output of this filter is around 500 LPH). I placed the filter right in the middle of back glass, with output nozzle directed straight to the front glass, however slightly angled downwards (may around 3-4 degrees) to maximize the flow reach to the substrate level. I used the supplied aeration of the filter, but put on minimum in order not to slow down the stream, and to slightly ripple the surface (otherwise there would be no water surface movement at all). This seems to work as I can see a constant but very gentle swaying of plants.

3. One T5HO 590mm 28W bulb. The original setup came with 2 bulbs, but I removed one. This according to PAR chart, puts me into medium light region (lights are around 50cm (around 20 inches) from substrate) with something between 50-70 mmol.

4. Usual sand substrate, nothing fancy. No airstones, no CO2 injection etc.

My flora and fauna:

1. 2 large anubias, 2 large amazon swords (leaves almost reaching water surface, thus around 40-50 cm long leaves), and 2 medium size java ferns.

2. 3 guppies, 1 black molly, 3 small/medium or juvenile angelfish, 8 grown-up neon tetras, 1 medium ramirezi. Probably, I am already overstocked for my tank size. But no plans to add more.

My maintenance routine:

1. Water parameters seem to be normal: PH around 7.5, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, around 20ppm nitrates. I use API master liquid test kit. I know some experts here advocate not to use any test kits. I don't remember when I checked water parameters last time, but these numbers seem to remain consistent whenever I checked. I mostly rely on visual inspection/assessment, and the fact that I have some algae is just telling that something is off.

2. Water change of 50% every week at least (usually during the weekend), and often twice a week with around 30% WC during the middle of the week. Water in Switzerland is very clean, thus I don't really expect any phosphates, nitrates or other nutrients in the tap water. I don't even dechlorinate the water during water changes (and we drink water straight from the tap).

3. Since I have, presumably, medium lighting by estimated PAR, I tried to keep photoperiod to minimum (given that I can't reduce the intensity). Usually, lights are turned on between 6-8 am (2 hours) in the morning for feeding and some maintenance, and during 6-9 pm (3 hours) just to enjoy the view. Not sure if this split photoperiod is enough, but this fits well with the period when I am home. The tank is not under direct sunlight, but I have a large windows, thus the ambient light seems to be sufficient. Again, not sure if minimal ambient light is enough for plant growth and health. It seems to be OK on the latter, when I was away from home for three days, the only thing plants received the ambient light (don't have autotimer for lights to turn on/off), and some amazon sword leaves that were yellowish turned green due to this.

4. I don't use CO2 injection or EI dosing. I only use root tabs (no phosphate or nitrates) for amazon swords every two-three weeks or so, liquid Easy-Life EasyCarbo 5ml (instructions 4ml max for 100 litres) every morning at 6am (just before I turn lights ON for 2 hours), and Easy-Life ProFito plant food (no phosphates and nitrates) every week 10ml per 100 litres as per instructions. I hope, there are some phosphates and nitrates from fish waste and fish food (mostly frozen food, with some mixed flakes alternating) in the tank already.

Apologies again for a long post, but hope this will give enough information on my setup and maintenance. Now what, I want is minimize algae (as a plant form, some algae is inevitable), but also minimize my investment resulting from any possible solutions. Things are very expensive here in Switzerland, and are not readily available.

I also want to keep my setup relatively low tech, without injecting CO2 and adhering to EI dosing, but maintaining Easy-Life dosing. The lighting puts me into medium light zone, where I am not sure whether Easy-Life liquid carbo and plant food is sufficient. I thought of changing the light bulb with a less intensive one, but I can't really find any T5NO here, unless I change the entire hood, which is not an option for me due to costs. Aquatlantis hood is also inconvenient as it only permits T5 and do not allow for any DIY solution. I can't deem the light either by wrapping the light with some cloth, paper or other materials as it gets hot. If I stay with the current single T5, would my lighting period (2h in the morning and 3h in the evening) work without negatively affecting plants' health, and without additional CO2/nutrients dosing? Any advice on how I could do things differently, adjust lighting differently (e.g. without buying floating plants)?

Now on the filtration, I am aware that single internal Eheim biopower 24 is nowhere near the 10x rule of thumb. But in terms of filtration it does seem to do its job. I was considering external Eheim eXperience 350 (https://www.eheim.com/en_GB/products/technology/external-filters/new-experience350), which seems to fit the bill, but darn expensive here. Probably, I would be better off buying the second Eheim biopower 240 (twice cheaper or more), which will give me similar performance of two internal filters combined against one external. But scratching my head now on how two internal filters would look/fit in my tank. For reassurance, is it correct to assume that two identical internal filters placed evenly along back glass with have a greater combined outflow (of not double the flow), or it will be more or less the same?

I might be asking for impossible things in trying to keep maintenance and investment to minimum but maximizing plant health (to reduce algae), but any advice on lighting and filtration/flow, as well as a general maintenance tips is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Baatar

 

[ian_m]

Technically adding liquid carbon as carbon source makes the tank makes the tank "high tech" and capable of running at higher light & nutrient levels, as well as requiring higher filtration rates and frequent water changes.

The filtration x10 rule is really only for CO2 injected, high light, high ferts dosing and frequent water changing regime.

Personally, as you allude, I would try to work with what you have got.

I would:
- Possibly reduce light level a tad by foil rings on the tubes, work well. Or leave as is and pay careful attention.
- Single lighting period of say 4-6hours. Split times are never good for plants, but good for algae.
- If using liquid carbon, some NPK fertilise will be required, as probably can't rely on fish food, fish poo and incoming water to supply.
- NPK as ready mixed will be fine, though mixing your own EI solution and dosing say 1/5 - 1/3 the daily amount (or less frequently) will be considerably cheaper. Salts are salt, the same from expensive ready mixed or mix your own EI.
- Frequent water changes, tank vacuuming and cleaning will always help. If you can do 50% a week wonderful, though less % or less often may be fine as not really "high tech".
- Algae move in due to poor plant, poor water conditions and poor maintenance.

My mate has a 120litre tank with single T5HO tubes, couple of foil rings to reduce light level, doses 1/3 EI dose once a week (or when ever) and changes water whenever and tank is largely algae free. Plants grow slowly.

 

[Baatar]

Thanks Ian for your suggestions.

Indeed, dosing liquid carbon doesn't make it a low tech tank. But with the level of lighting, dosing and maintenance, it doesn't make a high tech tank either (as per your description of a true "high tech" tank). Mine is somewhere in between, I guess.

I take it that buying an additional filter is not necessary, and I should keep using Easy-Life. I will explore if I can obtain NKP ferts, should be able to find.

On the lighting, what are foil rings? Sorry, haven't heard of these before. Could I use kitchen aluminium foils, or this is something different? As for the photoperiod, I will try 6h straight from 3pm to 6pm. Although I would still turn on lights, however briefly, in the moning (maybe 30 minutes) just to feed my fish.

Changing water 50% every week is not an issue really, which I used to do anyway. Sometimes when it is possible, I do another smaller WC mid-way.

Any other tips and suggestions are welcomed. I guess, I need also to carefully read the EI dosing post.

Baatar

 

[ian_m]

Yes, fashion foil rings from kitchen foil and wrap around the tube.

Have your lights got reflectors? Removing or angling them reduces light.

 

[Baatar]

Thanks again Ian, no, I don't have any reflectors. The hood has a white plastic cover, under which the bulb is located. Will try a foil wrapping.

 

[Baatar]

Sorry, a few other follow-up questions if I may.

On the lighting duration, there is a typo above. I am planning for 6h lighting from 3pm to 9pm. In this case should dose liquid carbon just before 3pm? I sense it wouldn't make sense to dose in the morning when lights will be ON just for half an hour to feed the fish and fir a quick inspection. I assume the CO2 will accumulate during the night anyway. Please advise.

On the flow, my current placement of the filter and outflow direction is barely sufficient, althought not ideal. But what role surface agitation plays? I understand that too much agitation will drive off already low CO2, although a very slight ripple might be beneficial for fish in terms of O2 dissolution. At the moment, I don't have surface movement due to slightly downward direction of the filter output nozzle. A minute amount of aeration I am getting from filter nozzle doesn't ripple as air bubbles are very small. Hope lack if surface movement is not an issue as I don't get any films on the surface too.

Cheers,

 

[Zeus.]

I am planning for 6h lighting from 3pm to 9pm. In this case should dose liquid carbon just before 3pm?

Yes, best just before lights come on

I understand that too much agitation will drive off already low CO2

No not if there is no CO2 injection. Low tech tanks benefit from surface agitation as it will help maintain the [CO2] when the lights are on as the plants use the CO2. It will increase the uptake of CO2 from the atmosphere slightly, it wont make a massive difference but it all helps, the Carbon LCO gives the plants isn't affected by surface agitation.

 

[Baatar]

Zeus, thanks for clarifying further and for reassurance.

There are so many factors and variables to consider in this hobby, which makes it challenging but really compelling to understand more. The reason I was not so confident in implementing certain strategies is precisely unclear, and sometimes conflicting, advice. Thanks for clarifying that if I were to inject CO2 then surface agitation is not advised. Thus in my case with liquid carbon I can safely use airstones, for example, if I were to aerate a bit or to get rid off surface film etc. Hope I didn't misunderstand this.

On the lighting, I am going to decrease the intensity. But just curious to know if single t5ho placed above substrate at 20 inches would not be at the level of damaging plant structure, regardless of duration? It is seen as medium light, and I gather that such damage occurs at extreme lighting levels (again can't remember the right terminology). Thus my lighting level as it is is not a problem. I am just trying to reduce algae and adjust to lower CO2 and nutrient dosing.

I am still not so confident on some of these issues due to lack of experience, thus might be ranting by now.

Best,

 

[Baatar]

Just a quick update.

I wrapped my single t5ho with a cut out long piece of aluminium BBQ tray, which has many holes. Now the lighting is not only dim, but very very dim. Looking at the hole sizes, I guess almost 80% of lighting is blocked, effectively bringing me down to very low lighting region.

Actually, I like this moonlightish feeling, pleasing to eyes. Now a question is whether I can run lights all day from 7am to 9pm (14 hours), and my current dosing is still OK? But will try NPK in any case, just a question if I can find these salts here, I don't even recall if I saw ready-made liquids in LFS.

Again out of curiosity, in addition to questions in my previous post, will this very very low light be sufficient to meet minimum light requirements of plants? Or need to slightly brighten back, but reducing foil wrapping? My gut feeling tells me it should be OK, assuming that even the level of ambient light will be greater than that minimum requirement. In any case, to be safe, I am really thinking to run this dim lights from dusk to dawn.

Any reactions, hope I am not doing these completely wrong.

Thanks!

 

[ian_m]

Sounds like too much light reduction. You do need to be able to see fish and plants when lights are on. Personally I would try with no foil light reducers, as you haven't got proper reflectors so light is likely lowish.

Liquid carbon is unaffected by agitation/air stones so go ahead and aerate. Liquid carbon also acts as a minor algaecide so slight overdosing can be beneficial. Careful though some plants just melt away in presence of liquid carbon. Dosing carbon before lights come on is probably optimal, but not necessary, as it will last in tank for many hours, it being decomposed by light.

I have done one off x10 liquid carbon dosing to wipe out algae when I have come back from a long holiday (5 weeks). Worked well, but I know my fish and plants are hardy.

 

[Zeus.]

Sounds like too much light reduction. You do need to be able to see fish and plants when lights are on. Personally I would try with no foil light reducers, as you haven't got proper reflectors so light is likely lowish.

Liquid carbon is unaffected by agitation/air stones so go ahead and aerate. Liquid carbon also acts as a minor algaecide so slight overdosing can be beneficial. Careful though some plants just melt away in presence of liquid carbon. Dosing carbon before lights come on is probably optimal, but not necessary, as it will last in tank for many hours, it being decomposed by light.

I have done one off x10 liquid carbon dosing to wipe out algae when I have come back from a long holiday (5 weeks). Worked well, but I know my fish and plants are hardy.

 

[Baatar]

Ok, I need further guidance from you.

Firstly, Zeus, just to be sure, are you reacting to x10 dosage of liquid carbon as too much? Anyway, I won't probably stick to this to remove algae, but focus on plants' health.

On lighting, when I said "moonlightish" I didn't mean that plants and fish are difficult to see, they were still nicely lit. Anyway, I went ahead and reduced the foil wrapping so that exactly only half of the bulb is covered. So effectively I reduced the light intensity by 40 or so % (considering holes in the foil), thus brining my lighting to around 30-40 mmol PAR at the substrate level. I find this quite acceptable level of lighting. Please correct me if I am wrong.

On NPK, It seems I would not find dry salts here to make my own DIY marco food. The only two choices available are Dennerle NPF Booster (all in one) VS Easy-Life (E-L) Fosfo and Nitro (all sold separately), where E-L Nitro also contains some potassium. As I mentioned before, I use E-L Profito, which also contains some potassium, thus I hope I don't need to buy potassium separately (and there is one sold separately too).

So, if I am to maximize my dosing as per the EI method (weekly amount of N 20ppm, P 3ppm, K 30ppm), which would be the better option (regardless of price which seem to be quite close for both products), E-L or Dennerle?

I tried to do some calculations on the dosing, which appears to be difficult (not in terms of math) in terms of concentration of NPK in each products. Just difficult to reconcile the content ratios with EI dosing ratios.

I take it EI dosing is to provide max/unlimited dosing. But in my case, if I go with half of the recommended dosing would it suffice (better than nothing)? If this helps, I am copy-pasting dosing instructions for each product.

Weekly Dennerle dosage of 10ml per 100 litres: N 5ppm; P 0.2ppm; K 1ppm

Weekly Easy-Life dosage of 10ml per 100 litres: N 10ppm; P 0.5ppm; K 6.5ppm

If this could be compared to, for example, half of the EI dosing: N 10ppm; P 1.5pmm; K 15ppm

I appears that Easy-Life would be much better option, in terms of content ratio (and cost wise too, E-L is slightly cheaper than Dennerle for the same 500ml bottles).

What would you suggest?

 

[Baatar]

I just run the numbers again.

If I buy Easy-Life Nitro + Fosfo (500ml each) it will cost me 28 swiss franks. And if dose twice the amount, e.g. 20ml per 100 litres every week (N 20ppm, P 1ppm, K 13ppm), which will be closer to EI half dosing (except for N at 20ppm) and the bottles will last half a year.

With Dennerle NPK booster (500 ml), it will cost me 34 swiss franks. And with the dosing of 40ml per 100 litres every week (N 20ppm, P 0.8ppm, K 4ppm), which will be less then half-EI dosing, the bottle will last around 3 months.

So from economics perspective, Easy-Life beats Dennerle. It is just a shame that I can not get dry salts in any way here, unless I order from abroad which with delivery costs would still be costly.

Hope I am doing calculations correctly. Would any one confirm that this is the way to go, before I go out and buy Easy-Life products?

Your advice and insights (if you used these products) are much appreciated!

 

[Baatar]

Just wanted to post quickly, now with some photos.

As you can see from the photos, almost half of the single t5ho bulb is wrapped with aluminium foil, but the lighting is not very dim.

Yesterday I went ahead and purchased E-L Nitro and Fosfo, in addition to Carbo and Profito that I am using already.

I now turn ON the lights from 6am to 12pm (6 hours) as the main photoperiod, with extra 3 hours (6-9 pm) for evening viewing. Not sure of this split photoperiod will encourage algae. Dosing liquid carbo at 6am, as per instructed dosing. Profito is dosed at 10ml every Sat or Sun.

For Nitro and Fosfo, I am thinking of dosing 10ml too per week (which would be slightly less than 1/4 of the recommended EI dosing). Still not really sure if this is sufficient for my setup with reduced lighting intensity. I know any changes for the better will take some time. I intend to dose Nitro and Fosfo at this dosing for couple of weeks to see what happens, and if need be will start dosing 20ml weekly (half of the EI dosing).

I cleaned the glass, syphoned sand/detritus, changed 50% water last Sunday, but this morning I saw the front glass is covered by GDA, after two days of cleaning. Again, I hope Nitro+Fosfo dosing would improve things in a couple of weeks time, until which I will be doing weekly cleaning/WC routine.

But what I might be potentially doing wrong? Should I just start with 20ml dosing straightaway?

cheers,

 

[Zeus.]

Firstly, Zeus, just to be sure, are you reacting to x10 dosage of liquid carbon as too much? Anyway,.

No, I would be happy to follow Ians dosage as a one off as he surgested, as Ian has always provided me with lots of great advise and he has lots of experiance. As Ian said he was happy to use the one off dose due to his hardy fish and plants but as a relative newbie myself a large one off dose always carries a risk

I take it EI dosing is to provide max/unlimited dosing

yes, and a good place to start and may be more than enough for most tanks, but some may need more if you have lots of fast growing plants, thats where the experience comes in. As long as the WC % is done to suit the EI dose there will be no harm done as thats what TBarr. worked out with the EI dosing as the WC just resets the tanks levels to safe levels each time plus removes the toxins etc

EI dosing with dry salts or stock DIY solution is always the cheapest option, plants dont care about brand as long as the the Macro and Micro nutrients are there for them when they need them

 

[Baatar]

Zeus, thanks for your reply on my earlier post. Not sure if you read the later updates above.

Unfortuntaely, I couldn't find dry salts in my area, probably will be looking for them when I travel to neighbouring EU countries. So for the time being, I have no other option as to stick to Easy-Life offerings as (I think) the most nutrients per cost value compared to other few ready-made products available here.

If you read my last updates, it would be great to have your opinions too on where I am going at the moment, and how I changed a few things in the last couple of days.

But but, two after my last big cleaning/maintenance, I still see the proliferation of GDA on my front glass. Not noticable on the photo, but could see them covering the glass from the side view. Thus, I might still be doing some things wrongly. Your comments on my current planned dosing (see above) would greatly help me!

 

[Zeus.]

I still see the proliferation of GDA on my front glass. Not noticable on the photo, but could see them covering the glass from the side view.

Well you do have a low plant mass (not counting what looks like plastic ones) and medium light so algea of all sorts is expected, but you have reduced the light which should help a lot. GDA is a tricky one to get under control 'if' you get it. I did get it so left it for a few weeks to mature then cleaned it off with a few big WC and its not been to bad since, but needs patience. More real plants would help some fast growing easy stems

 

[Baatar]

Thanks Zeus for all your advice.

Yes, do have some plastic plant along back glass. I will change them with Amazon Swords, which are growning fast (at least those two in in front). I was contemplating whether I should get rid off of plastics, as they don't look nice with diatoms on them. You could see the darkened colours.

Thanks again for everything, just gave another reason to go all live plants.

Best,

 

[Baatar]

Hi Ian and Zeus,

If you are reading this, I went ahead and ordered EI starter kit from APFUK, should arrive any day now. With shipping and other costs, this is indeed cheaper long term than buying easylife products locally. And easier to mix the solution in right amounts or concentrations, instead of relying on low and unbalanced content of commercial products.

As you know, I have 2 large amazon swords, 2 large anubias nana, 2 medium java ferns. In addition to these I recently purchased 3 small echinodorus little bears, and 2 batches of altenanthera reineckii. Would this still count as low or medium plant mass?

The question is how much to dose. Should I dose full EI (macros on odd days, micros on even days, weekend rest), or should I dose 50% or even less?

I will prepare the solution as per guides for 500ml of water, which should last wuite some time. Thus should I store solution in fridge, or just room temp shelf is OK?

Thanks for your reply,

 

[Zeus.]

I would start on full EI dose for 4-6weeks with 50% weekly WC. Store in a cool dark place.