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Lighting Advice Needed

Hi Mark
You have got to get into your head your plants will not die if you lower the lighting.
They just will not grow as quick.
This is what i would do.
Remove all affected leaves and do general cleaning do a water change.
Clean your pipes.
Stop using the Koral's...these are blowing debris around.
Reduce your Co2 and lighting and half the EI dosing routine.
Do a gravel clean.
Do not change any water for four weeks but do gravel cleaning each week.... replace the water.
Monitor the progress.
Keep us posted.
hoggie
 
hogan53 said:
Hi Mark
You have got to get into your head your plants will not die if you lower the lighting.
They just will not grow as quick.
This is what i would do.
Remove all affected leaves and do general cleaning do a water change.
Clean your pipes.
Stop using the Koral's...these are blowing debris around.
Reduce your Co2 and lighting and half the EI dosing routine.
Do a gravel clean.
Do not change any water for four weeks but do gravel cleaning each week.... replace the water.
Monitor the progress.
Keep us posted.
hoggie
Click to expand...

What should I replace the Koralias with and what would be the purpose of doing water changes every 4 weeks? I don't know many that leave it that long and leaving the same water in for that long could result in a very low KH level by the time a W/C is due. I would probably be swapping KH tank water of 2dH with tapwater with a KH value of 4dH which would be a drastic shock to the fish if I was to stick to doing a 50% water change.
 
Hi
The idea is trying to get the aquarium settled without too much disturbance.
Its only for 4 weeks you should do gravel cleaning.
Lowering the lighting will have the affect of slowing the plant growth down... less waste.
Its quality plants your looking to grow not quantity at this stage.
Reduce the Co2 and the EI you will not need as much.
Run your lights for 7 hours a day.
Run another filter with very fine floss if you can...slight water movement on the surface this will keep the Co2 that your dosing in.
This is not a exact science as all aquariums are different.
Be patient.
hoggie
 
@ Garuf

Just letting you know that I've put into effect your advice; I will up the co2 injection rate to 3 BPS or whatever produces a lime green in the drop-checker at lights on and ensure that this happens only 1 hr before lights on instead of 3. Have yet to increase o2 though; if there is a lack of o2/co2 gas exchange at the boundary layer do you get a plethora of bubbles at the surface? Just thought I'd let you know that the water's surface has no bubbles and I can see the rippling.
 
Here's a good picture of the 'white dust' on a Cryptocoryne brown (click to zoom). None of it is sticking to Marsilea or the Cryptocoryne Parva or Parvula grass. Small amounts are sticking to an Echinodorus.

It seems to be forming on or sticking to Crypts. So is this an unusual form of crypt melt?

dsc05430.jpg
 
It might be worth noting that if the bubbles are going into the drop checker they can give a false reading, a way of getting round this is to push the drop counter so it touches the substrate so it creates a sort of seal, the drop checker will then show the amount of co2 that's in the water rather than the co2 that is still in aerosol entering the tank.

It's a very interesting case despite all the frustration it's caused, we've all been there, try not to take it too hard, we'll get to the bottom of it all I'm sure.
 
Garuf said:
It might be worth noting that if the bubbles are going into the drop checker they can give a false reading, a way of getting round this is to push the drop counter so it touches the substrate so it creates a sort of seal, the drop checker will then show the amount of co2 that's in the water rather than the co2 that is still in aerosol entering the tank.

It's a very interesting case despite all the frustration it's caused, we've all been there, try not to take it too hard, we'll get to the bottom of it all I'm sure.
Click to expand...

Thanks again, I hadn't thought of that.

This is my last contribution for today as this issue, and particularly my fish becoming ill as a result of the problem, has affected my blood glucose lvls (I have type 1 Diabetes).

If the increased injection of CO2 and better O2 circulation doesn't work (although the boundary layer already indicates good gaseous exchange), I'm going to relocate the co2 diffuser over to the left pane of glass along with the power-heads (or perhaps an internal filter with spraybar) to get flow distributed from the left pane to the right pane as at the moment the power-heads have no option but to direct flow to the front pane; when the flow hits this pane it disperses both leftwards and rightwards which I don't think is ideal.
 
Plant's appear small/young, could this be newly established tank or are plant's just new/young?
You say you are growing tired of throwing out plant's which indicates maybe tank is not too young but plant's are?
Have you tried brushing the white particulate off of plant leaves? how fast does it return?
Could white particulate be tiny bit's of sand deposited where flow picks it up and forces it back against back glass?
I had similar problem with black sand until I moved spray bar so that flow went more towards surface.
Have you considered as mentioned raising the light fixture,reducing hours that light is on,or possibly a piece of window screen found at hardware store to diffuse lighting a bit?
Are you dosing nutrient's per EI (estimative index)?
If CO2 cannot be increased to current lighting level,,then lowering light intensity and duration would seem to be logical next step.
Brown bit's on leaves almost look like diatom's but other's may have better insight.
If floating plant's produced desired result's with respect to algae,then lighting would be where I began to make adjustment's.
Ain't no expert,,just tossing out some question's other's may ask. :silent:
 
roadmaster said:
Plant's appear small/young, could this be newly established tank or are plant's just new/young?
You say you are growing tired of throwing out plant's which indicates maybe tank is not too young but plant's are?
Have you tried brushing the white particulate off of plant leaves? how fast does it return?
Could white particulate be tiny bit's of sand deposited where flow picks it up and forces it back against back glass?
I had similar problem with black sand until I moved spray bar so that flow went more towards surface.
Have you considered as mentioned raising the light fixture,reducing hours that light is on,or possibly a piece of window screen found at hardware store to diffuse lighting a bit?
Are you dosing nutrient's per EI (estimative index)?
If CO2 cannot be increased to current lighting level,,then lowering light intensity and duration would seem to be logical next step.
Brown bit's on leaves almost look like diatom's but other's may have better insight.
If floating plant's produced desired result's with respect to algae,then lighting would be where I began to make adjustment's.
Ain't no expert,,just tossing out some question's other's may ask. :silent:
Click to expand...

The plants are new/young. I've had the aquarium running as a planted tank for 2.5 years. I've tried removing the particles and they come off easily, but I equally don't want to stress out the fish so I haven't removed all of it. These particles are not sand going on how they feel and how they look to the eye (the camera perhaps doesn't capture how they look adequately enough). I can't raise the light fixture unless I open the hood; it's not an open-top aquarium. The lighting period lasts for 7 hours; this should be reduced further?
 
I've just dislodged about 80% of the white particles so the plants/fish are very obscured by floating debris. I've also moved both power-heads to the left pane of glass and positioned the diffuser directly underneath them. The flow appears to be far-reaching as a result of this change. I will chop any dead leaves away tomorrow (there doesn't appear to be that many). The co2 distribution can't have been too bad prior to this change as one plant has actually grown a flower bud; the stem that it is on having grown 10cm in only 24 hours!

I tried using an internal filter with spray bar prior to using the power-heads in their new location (in accordance with somebodies advise within this topic) but couldn't get any of the co2 mist to enter the intake grills so I removed it immediately. Also, the output flow was quite ferocious and was just blasting the plants.

Lastly, and as advised, I tried introducing 3 BPS 1 hour before lights on and this affected the behaviour of the GBR. I'm unable to get introduce anymore o2 by changing the extent of rippling as power-heads aren't mean't for this and my slow internal filter (the one that I mentioned earlier that is hardwired into the aquarium hood) is 100% non-versatile (i.e. you cannot change the flow direction or move the filter).
 
if the white things are now in the water column then it must be precipitation of some kind i think.... Maybe your ferts?
 
darren636 said:
if the white things are now in the water column then it must be precipitation of some kind i think.... Maybe your ferts?
Click to expand...

Can that happen from ferts? I use potassium nitrate and mono-potassium phosphate (dry salts) from Fluid Sensor. I mix these dry salts into bottles of 250ml of tap water. I've been using these salts for around 2 years and only once or twice have I had a white particle like growth on pieces of bog wood where it intermingled between fish netting and moss. I've never had white particles forming on everything.
 
Whitey89 said:
Sure you aren't dosing Iron?

Because Iron mixing with the Phosphates will cause the crystallisation similar to what your experiencing I believe.
Click to expand...

Yes I'm dosing the tank with TPN which has iron in it. Sometimes I forget to dose the tank with TPN (on one or more of the micro-nutrient dosing days of Sat, Tue & Thurs) so I usually dose the TPN on a macro-nutrient dosing day to make up for this. I guess this is a big no no since the TPN will react with the phosphate to a higher extent?

Edit: Despite having 3 BPS, a lime green colour in the drop-checker, better oxygenation (there is by chance more rippling occurring brought about by the outlet pipe of the filter) and relocation of the powerheads for better co2 distribution, the white particles are reforming on the plant leaves. There is a lot of the white particles trapped behind the filter which is 30cm x 20cm and which goes flat up against the glass pane.

Based on what Whitney89 has said, I will ensure that I dose TPN on separate days to my macro-nutrients to stop any crystallisation (on the presumption that the particles are crystals; they do look wavy and fluffy.)
 
If you can, is it possible to get some of the particles out dampen them off and then perform the vinegar test on them, if they fizz then we've identified that it's a calcium deposit, if not then it's something else.
 
Garuf said:
If you can, is it possible to get some of the particles out dampen them off and then perform the vinegar test on them, if they fizz then we've identified that it's a calcium deposit, if not then it's something else.
Click to expand...

I will do that tomorrow and post the results. I don't know what kind of a fizz I'm looking out for but i'll give it my best shot.
 
Hi Mark, do you know what the total alkalinity / carbonates are of the tap water you are using to do the water changes? I read you said a hardness of 6dH, but do you know the kH / ppm CaCO3 from the water provider? (can get a water report from their website and is really revealing regarding ferts and effectiveness of test kits etc).

Pretty sure Garuf has nailed it with the biogenic decalcification hunch, each Friday with your water change you are providing a big dose of carbon in the bicarbonate form that certain plants will, if given enough light energy / lack of CO2, be able to strip down to CO2, the downside is the white calcium carbonate deposits on the leaves - they go kinda crusty! I've had it on loads on my plants - seen it on Cryptocorynes, Cyperus Helferi, Echinodorus, etc (my tapwater has 185ppm Calcium Carbonate), not all plants can do this and it's an adaptation that works for plants coming from hardwaters.

I'm not seeing carbon deficiency so much as carbonate efficiency by certain plants...and the algae.
Solutions:-
1.lower light (regrow the salvinia?) as per Clive's original suggestion...dissolved CO2 at current concentrations will match the rate of photosynthesis, without plants / pulling on the carbonates for food.
2.Lower carbonate going into tank (mix with rainwater / RO)...will mean you can add same level of CO2 as current, but have a greater percent in solution as simple dissolved CO2.
3. Dance a finer line with injecting more CO2, and most importantly, inject when the plants most need it, so that the carbonate reserves aren't dipped into by the plants, as was also suggested.
4. Lower the frequency of water changes, inject the same level of CO2, so that the alkalinity slowly falls with the removal of crusty leaves, and maintain a lower carbonate, essentially living with it. Will mean adjusting fert parameters / monitoring the buffering capacity of the remaining carbonate reserves, etc.

I think all these things are the Catch 22 of hard tap water, but at least your plants are growing and you care for the wellbeing in the tank, so it's a challenge rather than a disaster.

I hope you find a solution that works for you

regards

Gary
 
Being in Derbyshire and being just on the wrong side of the boarder originally the water from the taps is rock hard with almost everywhere being limestone and sandstone I imagine it's got a very high level of caco3 like mine does/did.

Crypts naturally come from rivers with solid limestone basins, I suspect that this is the origin of their adaptation, vallis too have this particular adaptation.

Another issue is that higher levels of hardness seem to impede co2 uptake so more needs to be injected.

The other thing could be to cut the water slowly with RO. This also would play well with the stress associated the HOITH disease, fish kept in water much harder than their source are under constant stress and this would explain it much better than fluctuations in co2 which most fish adapt to as similar things happen naturally. It's anecdotal but a lot of people who have struggled with it are keeping fish, particularly Amazonian cichlids, are located in hard water areas without cutting the water or using some other method to reduce ph/tds load etc.
 
Garuf said:
Being in Derbyshire and being just on the wrong side of the boarder originally the water from the taps is rock hard with almost everywhere being limestone and sandstone I imagine it's got a very high level of caco3 like mine does/did.

Crypts naturally come from rivers with solid limestone basins, I suspect that this is the origin of their adaptation, vallis too have this particular adaptation.

Another issue is that higher levels of hardness seem to impede co2 uptake so more needs to be injected.

The other thing could be to cut the water slowly with RO. This also would play well with the stress associated the HOITH disease, fish kept in water much harder than their source are under constant stress and this would explain it much better than fluctuations in co2 which most fish adapt to as similar things happen naturally. It's anecdotal but a lot of people who have struggled with it are keeping fish, particularly Amazonian cichlids, are located in hard water areas without cutting the water or using some other method to reduce ph/tds load etc.
Click to expand...

In the end Garuf, have you come to the conclusion to add RO to your tapwater, or do you persevere, increase the CO2 rate, etc?

On the new tank I'm putting in place I hope to be able to get good results using tapwater, we'll see...

cheers

Gary
 
I moved house in the end, so really, I accepted defeat. I did persevere prior to moving though and kept higher levels of co2 and things ran fine but my water in Hollington near stoke was/is toxic to shrimp because of all the heavy metals in the water. I never noticed any precipitates but I did really struggle with certain plants, bolbititis in particular.

My shrimp tank is in Hollington and still running, my dad who's looking after the tank at the minute cuts the tap water 50/50 with rain water but it's still very hard with having a sandstone quarry pumping dust into the air like no bodies business so near.

If money was no option though, I'd use ro and cut it with hma water to bring it to more sane levels of hardness and to strip out the lead and copper.
 
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