Is EI enough?

[Jaap]

Hi,

Christos and I were discussing the matter this morning. Is EI enough for good growth? I mean we both have clay based substrate that is not packed with any nutrients, we dose our EI, we have a good light source, we have good circulation and good CO2 but the growth is low. Maybe the macros and micros are not enough!

Take into consideration the fact that clay based substrate has a high CEC and what happens if we add the EI dosage every day? Will it get sucked up by the substrate? If it gets absorbed will it then be released into the water column until there is a balance between water column and substrate? Will this not cause deficiencies momentarily? Will the plants use the nutrients from the substrate though their rooting system? Will it be better to have an inert substrate that doesn't absorb all the nutrient.

I know its a stupid question but isn't EI supposed to be equivalent to a really good nutrient packed substrate?

We are struggling with growth while other people have a full carpet in a month. Some have good substrates others don't. Those that don't are they overdosing EI?

Share your thoughts please!

Thanks

 

[MedicMan]

I personally think it depends more on your co2 than anything. What you think might be good co2 may inface be mediocre.
How are you diffusing the co2?
Are you achieving a pH drop of 1 before lights on?
What colour are your drop checkers near substrate level?
What recipie are you following for ei?

 

[Jaap]

CO2 is diffused via inlet of filter for me and Christos does it through a reactor. we definitely have a 1ph drop and also our drop checkers are lime yellow to yellow. EI I use the just another calculator on the web.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

 

[Rahms]

have you moved dropchecker about?

from what I've seen in my own tank, if you lack nutrients you wouldn't be getting slower healthy growth, you'd have growth that is clearly not happy. So you should be able to tell really- are you seeing any signs of deficiency?

+1 medicman, probably CO2 distribution. If you think your CO2 is fine, turn up the lights as thats what ultimately controls your growth rate (whereas CO2/ferts prevent stuff melting or being deficient) <-- broad oversimplification warning

edit: is your tank deep?

 

[MedicMan]

Definitely agree with the drop checker. I found while I had my dc at the top and it was yellow, I'd get little to no growth. Put it near the substrate, no changes in flow, turns out it was be dark green.
I


Please excuse grammar and spelling mistakes in this post. I'm posting from my phone/tablet.

 

[Christos Ioannou]

Lime yellow @ substrate level... Any chance that the high cec substrate is absorbing a large amount of nutrients?
I mean that an inert sand substrate may result in more ferts available in the water column?
I started double dosing macros, results can be seen here...

 

[Edvet]

No harm in doubling you dosis, just try it. I guess clay may absorb some, but it will stop when "filled".

 

[Marcel G]

In my opinion, there may be 100+ factors causing bad growth of our aquarium plants. I really don't understand why some people consistently blame CO2 for it all the time without any data from some serious experiments. Although they don't know the conditions in your tank, they are bold enough to claim that you have too little CO2 in your tank. Even after you tell them you have yellow dropchecker at the substrate level, they still insist on their "truth" with too low CO2. I don't consider it wise nor sensible. In fact, I think that such a statements are detrimental to our hobby as they keep us from a sincere effort to know what really happens in our tanks. Whatever problem you have, it's always CO2 issue ... they say.

To anwer some of your questions:
In my opinion (which may prove to be wrong), water parameters are very important in growing aquatic plants, then light intensity and nutrient content. For plants to grow well, they should have enough light. An optimum level of light for many aquatic plants is in the range of 500 to 1000 µmol/m2/s. At this amount of light the photosynthesis of aquatic plants reach its saturation point, meaning that the plants grow at 100%. In our tanks we usually supply plants with much less light. The most brave aquarists let plants have 150 µmol/m2/s at the substrate level. So from this you can see that we give our plants much less light than what can be considered optimal. The same applies for nutrients (except CO2). For many aquatic plants the following concentrations of nutrients are optimal: 190 ppm NO3 (part of which should be in the form of NH4), 50 ppm K, 19 ppm PO4, 1-5 ppm Fe, 40 ppm CO2. If you supply your aquarium plants this amount of nutrients (together with 500-1000 µmol/m2/s of light), then you can be quite sure they have optimum amount of nutrients and light for their growth. So, logically, when you supply them with less than this, their growth won't be optimal ... although it still may be very good (or close to optimal).
There is just one (big) problem with all this: This is optimal for plants, not critters! Also, under these conditions you will probably experience algae infestations. So although this amount of nutrients and light is optimal for aquatic plants, as far as our critters and algae its very bad idea to have it in our tanks. So if you want to have your plants grow at 100%, you should give them as much light and nutrients as possible (up to the above stated values) ... without causing troubles to your critters and encouraging your algae. The best way (I know of) how to do this, is to put all the nutrients into the substrate, so that the water column may stay relatively nutrient-free. Algae don't have roots, so they have no access to nutrients hidden in the substrate. So if you put the nutrients into your substrate, you provide your plants with optimum amount of nutrients without endangering your critters or risking algae problems. As to the light, you will be hardly able to increase your light over 150 µmol/m2/s at the substrate level. Such a level is achieved when using ADA Aquasky 601 which is very strong light. So you'll be hardly able to create an optimum lighting conditions for your aquatic plants. Your aquatic plants will be limited by light most of the time. As far as proper water parameters, this is very much species specific issue, as each plant species may have different demands for water parameters (temperature, pH, alkalinity, hardness ...). I think that plants can tolerate quite wide range of different parameters, but there may be some parameters which may hinder growth or cause other undesirable issues, and little is known about it. As I already said, too many people here blame CO2 for most of these issues. I am convinced that there is a lot of other things causing these issues (like pH of the water or substrate, redox of water or substrate, dissolved organics, dissolved oxygen etc. => most of which is very hard to measure or monitor).

 

[parotet]

IME EI is more than enough to provide nutrients to the plants even if you use clay based substrates... just have a look to some setups in this forum and other ones with JBL Manado. It is not probably an "unlimited amount of nutrients" but quite probably "enough to let the plants uptake a significant amount" (see Ardjuna's posts for more details about this). The point IMO is that EI is not the solution to all your problems... I mean, most people think that if you switch to EI plants will have plenty of nutrients and problems will be over (=no algae). Actually, in this is again a personal opinion, I think that under certain circumstances, EI can bring quite a lot of problems (=can be very demanding method).
Another thing, a lime yellow drop checker is no good... I was also pushed to yellow drop checkers at lights on when using EI. I never got rid of BBA and the answer was "more CO2"... I killed a lot of my cherry shrimps and I suspect my fish were suffering at that time. Now I have a stable CO2 delivery and aim at having a green drop checker at lights off, not even yellow at lights off.

After a few years of experience with planted tanks I think we pay too much attention to fertilization. Plant need nutrients, that's all. We know we cannot starve them, right. But there is a whole range of possibilities to achieve this, and there are a lot of variables to be taken into account. In my very hard water/medium light/enriched substrate/Co2 tanks I realized that EI was very demanding (2x 50% weekly water changes, slight but persistent BBA in lower parts of background plants, etc.). Then I realized that a leaner dosing (something close to PPS-Pro) was good enough for me, and then I realized that mixing 50% of my very hard water with 50% of rainwater made my life easier: 1x 50% weekly WC, no algae at all, good growth and colour. Now I am step ahead: I only dose macros when I see any deficiency

Jordi

 

[5678]

from what I've seen in my own tank, if you lack nutrients you wouldn't be getting slower healthy growth, you'd have growth that is clearly not happy. So you should be able to tell really- are you seeing any signs of deficiency?

This is the approach I'm taking.

I've seen a few variations on plant growth so far while I have been altering the setup of my tank and switching from low tech to high tech. Lanky/Sparse growth, through to fast, thick growth but with pale leaves.

I have backed off my light and worked on getting my CO2 and EI right first. Once I see healthy, but slow growth, then I am going to start upping the light levels again.

 

[parotet]

I have backed off my light and worked on getting my CO2 and EI right first. Once I see healthy, but slow growth, then I am going to start upping the light levels again.

This another typical answer from EI-related problems. The canned answer is: "lower lights, higher CO2 and higher nutrients". IMO it is a nonsense that can very easily lead to more problems. Why more CO2 and nutrients, if you have less light? You don't want tones of nutrients in a tank if they won't be used. As Ardjuna mentions, algae (which are always in your tank, especially if you're having problems) will make use the nutrients. So you will have less plant growth and more nutrients for algae... definitely not the way to go.

Give enough light to the plants (at least "medium" light), ensure a stable CO2 supply, empty your tank and clean it (if you are under 100 liters it takes 2 hours, not more), plant a lot of cheap and easy plants (a lot means that you cannot see the substrate from above), perform weekly 50% WC, good tank husbandry (get rid of dead plants, leaves, infected parts, debris, clean the filter, the hoses, etc.), if you have an enriched substrate don't add macros just watch before if plants need it, if you have an inert substrate dose half of the EI dose and see how it works, adjust to the needs of your setup and don't follow other hobbyists "rules"... and it will work.

Jordi

 

[5678]

This another typical answer from EI-related problems. The canned answer is: "lower lights, higher CO2 and higher nutrients". IMO it is a nonsense that can very easily lead to more problems. Why more CO2 and nutrients, if you have less light? You don't want tones of nutrients in a tank if they won't be used. As Ardjuna mentions, algae (which are always in your tank, especially if you're having problems) will make use the nutrients. So you will have less plant growth and more nutrients for algae... definitely not the way to go.

Give enough light to the plants (at least "medium" light), ensure a stable CO2 supply, empty your tank and clean it (if you are under 100 liters it takes 2 hours, not more), plant a lot of cheap and easy plants (a lot means that you cannot see the substrate from above), perform weekly 50% WC, good tank husbandry (get rid of dead plants, leaves, infected parts, debris, clean the filter, the hoses, etc.), if you have an enriched substrate don't add macros just watch before if plants need it, if you have an inert substrate dose half of the EI dose and see how it works, adjust to the needs of your setup and don't follow other hobbyists "rules"... and it will work.

Jordi

Hi Jordi,

I would say I am still at "medium" light, I am running a TMC Mini 500 at 45% for 7 hours a day. I had pushed this up to 60% when I started seeing pale leaves on new growth.
I am using JBL Manado, so not an enriched substrate, dosing EI and have a light green DC just above the substrate in the lowest flow area of the tank.
My plants are already starting to get colour back after just 5 days. When I do my w/c on Sunday I am going to up my light to 50% and repeat for a week.

I have learnt that I cannot just copy what someone else prescribes and have it work. Too many variables. I am trying to make small, logical steps to establish what works for me.

Thanks

 

[ian_m]

I assume you are alternate day macro micro dosing ? We have had people here with poor plant growth with CO2 & light acceptable and find out they are dosing macro and micro at the same time and plants suffering Fe deficiency. Dosing alternate days started to cure their issues.

 

[Christos Ioannou]

I assume you are alternate day macro micro dosing ? We have had people here with poor plant growth with CO2 & light acceptable and find out they are dosing macro and micro at the same time and plants suffering Fe deficiency. Dosing alternate days started to cure their issues.

Yes on alternative days.

Forgot to quote this thread from @Luis Batista. See results from upping macros. Amazing.

 

[parotet]

Hi Jordi,

I would say I am still at "medium" light, I am running a TMC Mini 500 at 45% for 7 hours a day. I had pushed this up to 60% when I started seeing pale leaves on new growth.
I am using JBL Manado, so not an enriched substrate, dosing EI and have a light green DC just above the substrate in the lowest flow area of the tank.
My plants are already starting to get colour back after just 5 days. When I do my w/c on Sunday I am going to up my light to 50% and repeat for a week.

I have learnt that I cannot just copy what someone else prescribes and have it work. Too many variables. I am trying to make small, logical steps to establish what works for me.

Thanks

Yes, that's what I mean... you have to find your sweet point following very basic and consistent rules you understand and you are able to monitor. Even if it is a glass cube, a simplistic version of the real world, there are too many things to consider. It is another of the very common but realistic answer in forums: each tank is different.

Jordi

 

[5678]

I assume you are alternate day macro micro dosing ? We have had people here with poor plant growth with CO2 & light acceptable and find out they are dosing macro and micro at the same time and plants suffering Fe deficiency. Dosing alternate days started to cure their issues.

Yes, dosing alternate days. I also added a touch more chelated iron to my micro mix that I will remove once I am back to green leaves again.

I think part of my problem was that everything else was OK, but I was dosing a "complete" fert and suffering from reactions meaning not everything could be absorbed.

 

[EnderUK]

I find trying to hard is the biggest cause of Algae. Once you don't really care about it then it goes away

 

[MedicMan]

I find trying to hard is the biggest cause of Algae. Once you don't really care about it then it goes away

Very annoying, but so true.

Please excuse grammar and spelling mistakes in this post. I'm posting from my phone/tablet.

 

[Jose]

If in doubt just dose double and find out. If youre not limitting too much to start with then you wont see a great change. EI can be affected by things like hard water.

 

[sciencefiction]

Now I am step ahead: I only dose macros when I see any deficiency

I think that's one of the best advices here. I wrote a big paragraph but then I deleted it because I sound ridiculous repeating myself. I think we should not be robots when it comes to growing aquatic plants neither should we be relying on someone else to resolve our own problems, be it aquatic plants problems or not.

Is EI enough for good growth?

As Jose said above, maybe not in certain circumstances. You have to see what your plants are telling you. I certainly think EI is limiting depending on the water conditions.

we have a good light source, we have good circulation and good CO2 but the growth is low. Maybe the macros and micros are not enough!

And then again, how do your plants look like? Are you talking about lush looking plants growing slow or poor plants growing slow? If they are poor looking, describe them maybe or post a picture?

Maybe the macros and micros are not enough!

Maybe, maybe not. Why not experiment a bit changing one factor at a time and figure it out for yourself without relying on generalized answers from people that were brainwashed to repeat the same thing they read the previous day. That includes me. It's very easy being brainwashed. It's a whole new science. The most common term is called marketing.