improvement advice

[dbean]

Hi all I've been running a juwel rio 400 (about 400 litres)
For a few months now. I've got aquasoil capped with jbl manado gravel I've got a variety of plants in there which all have similar requirements from what I was informed when purchasing from plants alive (I got the 122 plant collection).

I've upgraded the old 2x36w t8s now to 4x56w t5s and I'm running co2 at approx 4 bps. I've not started fertilizing routinely yet but occasionally have put a few capfulls of pets at homes home brand plant food in when I do the weekly pwcs. Anyway my plants are growing but not nearly as lush as id like I used to have a 90l with no co2 lower lighting and the plants were much healthier looking.

Im running 2x 2000lph all pond solutions filters one with a 7v lamp. Im just wondering on how I could improve things or if im doing something wrong. Please take a look at some of the pics if I can get them in here its not as pretty as some of the aquascapes on here but hence why im asking for recommendations.

thanks

 

[dbean]

Sorry dont mean to bump the thread but how can I get images on here?

Thanks

 

[dbean]

Kinetic imgur Upload

http://i.imgur.com/7NpM79X.jpg

got it (sorry)

 

[Ady34]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Nice looking tank
I would guess your issue lies with increasing the lighting in turn driving a greater need for nutrition from the plants. The 'I love fish plant food' from pets at home is a trace mix fertiliser only, which provides only the micro nutrients. You will now need a regular comprehensive fertilisation routine which will include macro fertiliser also to allow your plants access to all the nutrients a high tech tank demands. These are NPK, nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium, and you could check out our forum sponsors to get a ready made mix, or the dry salts needed to make your own. On a tank of your size it may be more cost effective to look at a macro and trace element dry salt starter pack whereby you mix all your own fertilisers. Alternatively several of our sponsors offer an all in one comprehensive fertiliser mix which takes away any complication or confusion for those who arnt confident with mixing their own. There are branded products such as Tropica specialised which offer the same comprehensive ingredients, but do cost more.
Your old tank with no co2 may have yielded better results due to the reduced lighting. Your increased lighting now means more attention to fertilisation which includes co2 and ensuring its correct input and distribution. I can see you have addressed the 10x turnover guide, but ensure good even flow and a good level of co2 for lights on. A spraybar set up as you have, is probably the most efficient way of distributing, however i cannot see a drop checker in your tank so it is difficult to guess as to the levels of c02 you are achieving. If you dont have a drop checker i would advise adding one to give you an indication of your c02 levels at any given time. Bubble counters vary, and every tank is different but 4 bps on a 400l system sounds on the low side to me, especially given the demands of the 4x 56w t5 lights you are using. For comparison i run a 180l tank with a similar bubble rate with lower lighting intensity.
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[dbean]

Hi there is a drop checker in the left side of the tank which stays a rich green colour. I thought the bps might be low but was iffy about increasing plus with the slow changeover of the drop checker was concerned about gassing the fish. Ill perhaps double my bps and get some decent ferts for now until I can learn more about mixing my own. Thanks

 

[Ady34]

Yeah I'd advise a comprehensive fertiliser on a high tech tank.
Regards co2, slowly slowly is the best approach when you already have livestock. Adjust over a weekend or when you are at home to monitor and do it in small increments. Your looking for a lime green dc colour for lights on which may take some tweaking of injection rate and time period of injection pre lights on. You can give yourself a little more leeway by reducing lighting intensity, you may find 2x t5 lamps more than enough for happy plants. Co2 is the most important factor to get spot on 🙂
Cheerio
Ady

 

[dbean]

I dont get it tho everywhere says I need so many watts per litre so ive got 220w to 400l so approx 0.5w per litre which most places say is too low.. I mean I just forked out £130 for a new row of t5s your saying I probably dont need ?? Ill take a shot of my drop checker and see what you think its a rich green as it is but the liquid is due changing this weekend
http://i.imgur.com/Th6FLkp.jpg


also I only noticed last night but im getting alot of little bits of algae on my dw and hair algae on the glass now isnt it too much nutrients and light that cause algae I have them on for 8 hours from 2 - 10

 

[ian_m]

Algae generally is caused by not enough nutrients and/or CO2 for the amount of light you have. I accidentally dosed nutrients to over 200ppm (whoops) and no sign of algae.

From your setup you have high light, CO2 and none or little fertilizer and as algae thrive in these conditions better than plants you have a perfect algae farm 😱

You are injecting CO2 and have 4 x 54W / 105 US gallon = 2W/gallon, you are into high tech territory here. To support this wattage you need CO2 and something like EI dosing, and of course the 50% water change per week to get rid of waste organics.

To get rid of existing algae, dose fertilisers, reduce your wattage (use say 2 tubes or back to T8's) and reduce the hours on and frequent high % water changes. This will reduce the speed that things happen, hopefully allow the plants to get a hold and get rid of algae. If algae is very bad try complete blackout for say 3 days, that is wrap tank in blankets/poly bags to ensure absolutely no light and monster water change at the end. Plants have enough food stored to survive this, algae doesn't.

Once you have mastered lower light growing, try putting all tubes on, increasing on time and increasing ferts. This increases the speed of things, but also increases the speed that things can go wrong !!!.

 

[Ady34]

Hi dbean,
Yeah unfortunately it's one of the biggest misconceptions in the hobby that you need high lighting intensity, and one that leads to algae woes and people leaving the hobby. Watts per litre and watts per gallon rules are vague guides now and par is a much more accurate measure of lighting intensity....unfortunately most of us don't have access to these tools as they are relatively expensive. For example wpl and wpg don't take into account the type of lighting used, t8 lighting is much less intense than the equivalent length t5 ho tubes like you are running, also when given a wpl/wpg figure there is no mention of how high the lighting unit is above the substrate level which can have a huge impact upon intensity and par levels so you can see the variations already.
It's generally accepted that 2x ho t5 with reflectors will be able to grow nearly all if not all plant species with good levels of co2 and nutrition. We tend to try and use lower lighting intensity to allow a greater margin for error in trying to optimise co2 concentration and distribution which is a much more important but difficult skill to master.
As for your drop checker, the colour looks too green, it needs ideally to be a lime green colour, but your livestock will dictate the levels you can inject safely, if the fish begin to struggle and youre still having algae/plant health issues and you have addressed fertiliser, co2 and distribution effectively then its a case of reducing lighting intensity. I would always start by reducing lighting to make striking the balance easier as it is light that drives the plants growth rates and uptake demands, if you slow things down then they don't need extreme levels 🙂
It's tricky to get your head around as most advice tells you it's all about light, but co2 and nutrients grow plants, light just dictates how fast.
Cheerio
Ady.

 

[dbean]

Thank you I just wish id posted on here before wasting over £150 on a new lid and additional light unit. Ohwell its nothing new ive been learning from mistakes since I started fishkeeping 2 years ago.

Ill keep the light units and turn 1x tube from each one off to distribute the light evenly ive got the bps to approx 5ps and fish seem ok. Ill keep on adjusting over the bank holiday weekend and see how I get on. But I cant thank you enough for the good advice.

to be honest tho the algaes not too severe ive cleaned the tank and its looking better but a few of my plants are covered in a brown algae that wont scrub off.

 

[dbean]

Dont mean to dig up an old thread but just updating.

my tank is looking alot better, I now run the co2 at about 8bps drop checker is a much lighter green, I took the reflectors off 2 of my t5s which I only run for about 3 hours later in the day and my other set is on 8 hours. Ive started using Api leaf zone fertilizer its a little non specific but its all i can find in the west mids (uk) and my plants are looking a richer green. I still get a bit of hair algae and the diatoms are slowly fading. but I would now longer deem my tank as an "algae farm" so thanks for the good advice.
one thing I have got now is clumps of substrate held together by what Id describes as green slime algae, they are just odd clumps for now but im praying they dont spread as I had a similar looking algae in an old tank that formed slimey sheets which i could not shift. If you can help with that id be greatful but im not sure if its slime algae or bga or what but ill post some pics when the lights come on.

For now this is what my tank looks like after some heavy gardening and removing some of the plants. I felt there was too many different types and it was looking a bit of a rable

 

[ian_m]

Nice one, plants, fish and hardscape.

Next thing to try, noticing you are using an in tank diffuser, is to move the drop checker around to see/confirm the CO2 enriched water is getting everywhere in the tank. Try different locations every couple of days for a few days.

From your photos you seem to be using quote a lot of CO2, of which most just gets wasted going straight to the surface. Try putting the diffuser under a filter intake, to allow the filter smash around the CO2 bubbles a bit. Might have to reduce CO2 to prevent gas build up in the filter and heed/not heed the advice that CO2 can damage rubber seals.

Below is a picture of what other people have strived to achieve in getting superior CO2 distribution.

 

[dbean]

Ill look at the in line diffusers then. Ive been moving the drop checker round a little and it seems quite well balanced. Should I be putting it lower in the tank ive been following instructions which say 10cm from the top so its gone left middle right and it seems quite stable but I agree im probably wasting 3/4 of co2 im pumping in there. I also noticed the pressure does not seem to be dropping either. Im using fire extinguishers at the minute with a single presdure manometer I dont think its a faulty reading cause if I shut off the handle it drops down after a few minutes.

when u say heed/not heed ive heard that it co2 makes air line hose brittle does it do the same for rubber seals. Tbh I need to replace the tubing anyway as the co2 tubing I have wasnt long enough. Ill see if I can pick up 2 inline diffusers and another bubble counter aswell and put them onto my filter outlet..

thanks for the drawing by the way thats almost exactly as mine will be set up.

 

[dbean]

why is the drop checker yellow with co2 and lights off. Its been a nice lime green with lights and co2 on. Do you think I need turn down the bps.. ill get the inline diffusers tomorro as its payday!!

also what do you think this is.. how can I treat it?

 

[ian_m]

I also noticed the pressure does not seem to be dropping either. Im using fire extinguishers at the minute with a single presdure manometer I dont think its a faulty reading cause if I shut off the handle it drops down after a few minutes.

The pressure in a CO2 extinguisher doesn't vary as the gas is used up, it stay at about 800psi (55bar) the liquid in it evaporating keeping the pressure the same. When the liquid has all gone, the pressure then starts to drop, in my case with 180l tank I get a couple of days notice before completely empty.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

why is the drop checker yellow with co2 and lights off. Its been a nice lime green with lights and co2 on.

The drop checker is just a pH indicator, it contains bromothymol blue, a narrow range pH indicator in 4dKH water. We can use the drop checker as a proxy for dissolved CO2 levels due to the CO2 ~ carbonate equilibrium, and the very small proportion of dissolved CO2 that becomes carbonic acid.

During the photo-period photosynthesis is a net producer of oxygen (and consumer of CO2), oxygen is a base (OH- is really O-H), this addition drives the pH upwards. When the lights are off plants are respiring and are net producers of CO2, and consumers of oxygen, this depresses the pH. Your drop checker is recording the changes in pH caused by the varying amounts of oxygen and carbonic acid (from dissolved CO2). At night you have higher levels of "natural" CO2 than you do during the day.

There is a fuller explanation here: <Drop checker Staying Yellow even with CO2 switched off | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

also what do you think this is.. how can I treat it?

It is BGA (Cyanobacteria). I usually just syphon it up and then give the filter a good clean. I've only ever had it on new tanks, but I have much more heavily planted tanks than most members, and after set up I tend to just leave them to get on with it with minimal intervention. Other will tell you you need to up your NO3 addition.

cheers Darrel

 

[dbean]

Thanks for the advice. I didnt know plants produced co2 at night so that makes alot of sense. I thought it was BGA but thought better to ask. I dont add any nitrates at all but my tests are a record low at approx 5-10ppm which considering our tap water is 20ppm I assumed was a good thing so ill try incorporating that with ferts if its gets any worse. But my last tank had a massive outbreak of it where as this is controllable. My tanks pretty new so I dont go nuts cleaning the filters just yet.

thanks again

 

[dbean]

Ok so thinking about it the bga has started since I turned my spray bars the other way to reduce gas exchange for co2. Which in turn has affected water circulation and led to this small outbreak which seems to be spreading more today. So ive turned my bars the other way again even the fish seem happier immediatley after doing so.

With you saying it may be a nitrate no3 problem im thinking should I start dosing or just add more stock to bump up the overall nitrate production or is this a different form of nitrate?. Ill vac out the existing BGA for now and see how it goes with the better circulation and look for some inline diffusers.

I also notice since I turned up the co2 my botia kubotai have become reclusive but I also repositioned the spray bars at the same time so maybe due to poor circulation/oxygenation.

What products are there that contain no3? I do want to start looking into dry ferts to mix myself eventually can I buy a nitrate supplement if additional stocking is not going to help.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

What products are there that contain no3? I do want to start looking into dry ferts to mix myself eventually can I buy a nitrate supplement if additional stocking is not going to help.

KNO3 (potassium nitrate) is your best bet, you can buy it via one of our sponsors, it is ~60% NO3 and 40% K .

I also notice since I turned up the co2 my botia kubotai have become reclusive but I also repositioned the spray bars at the same time so maybe due to poor circulation/oxygenation.

Probably the latter, rheophilic fish and added CO2 isn't a great mix (others may disagree). Also because of the low pH at night I would definitely go for a lot more night time oxygenation. An air pump (on a timer) is an option some people use. As a test whether this is working your drop checker should then be green or blue at night rather than yellow. Have a look at <plecoplanet: Aeration and dissolved oxygen in the aquarium>

So ive turned my bars the other way again even the fish seem happier immediatley after doing so.

Probably it was a CO2/O2 balance problem. If you have a lot of CO2 you need a lot of oxygen as well. Personally I like a lot of oxygen all the time, but I don't add CO2, so having a large gas exchange surface is an advantage for me rather than a disadvantage.

Have a look at these: <CO2/pH level in planted tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society>, <EI Or PMDD? | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <Are co2 enriched tanks really fair on the critters? | Page 2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society>

cheers Darrel

 

[dbean]

Thanks darrel for the links and info