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ID this algae please
- Thread starter Jaap
- Start date
Well if your lighting is too high it cause things to deplete quicker such as CO2 and nutrients. Now if you experienced initially speedy growth due to the light and you have previously provided enough of the nutrients and CO2, but can't provided enough right now for the increased plant mass coupled with the strong lights then you are asking for trouble. Speedy growth can come from the high lights but it will soon decrease if nutrients and CO2 can't keep up with the metabolism.
I understand where you are coming from but I dont even have initial growth...my observation is that when I kept plants in aquariums a few years ago and I was less informed on the subject, i used to have too much light too little co2 and bad flow which caused alot of algae....but I had noticeable growth! Good growth! Now I have no growth and algae that in my opinion is not related to high light...my stem plants are leggy and any moss that I have near substrate level is now dead...
You are being mislead and following the Matrix of pH...See what your plants are saying (algae..) and what you drop checker is saying.
I assume you have a drop checker ?
I run my drop checker green/yellow with no fish issues (and no BBA).
I assume you have a drop checker ?
I run my drop checker green/yellow with no fish issues (and no BBA).
Leggy stem plants are usually a result from CO2 issues along with high lights. Since you have had algae in both your tanks with high lights suggests that lighting is your problem which is most of the time. I understand you want good growth, but this thread you started is trying to address algae, and if you succeed in addressing algae you will also get good growth. What I mean by good growth is just healthy plants and not speed.
I know you said your old tank received good growth with the high lights and algae. But what has happened since that? Did it eventually decline? What happened at the end of that setup? Prolonged good growth or hostile algae take over?
I know you said your old tank received good growth with the high lights and algae. But what has happened since that? Did it eventually decline? What happened at the end of that setup? Prolonged good growth or hostile algae take over?
Ian I am a bit confused here....you are telling me to check my drop checker (which I have previously removed but I have added is again just to check your point) and others like Clive say that the drop checker is just an indication and a pH profile is the best way to figure out co2 levels (apart from watching plant behavior).
Now, as I mentioned, the truth is that I have lowered the CO2 injection twice, just a little bit each time, because as the weather was gettign colder and the tank temperature was lowering, I saw a better/greater pH drop and also my fish were a bit lethargic so I decreased co2 injection. That might have caused the BBA but many people approved of my pH profile...oh an for a 40L tank you should see the bubbles per second that I am pumping through my inline difuser into the filter inlet. Even though bubbles per second are not something to rely on, in my case the rate is not measurable....too fast!
Martin in Holland
Member
- Joined
- 28 May 2013
- Messages
- 2,310
Getting CO2 right is the most difficult task in planted tanks. It's not only pumping in CO2 and tata...done. No way near even. The right amount of CO2 is connected to many factors.
1. more light, more CO2 demand
2. warmer water, more CO2 demand
3. more plant mass, more CO2 demand
4. good flow
5. good.......well I guess you get the idea
Also a good diffuser or reactor is worth looking into.
1. more light, more CO2 demand
2. warmer water, more CO2 demand
3. more plant mass, more CO2 demand
4. good flow
5. good.......well I guess you get the idea
Also a good diffuser or reactor is worth looking into.
Ok...I understand....
What else should I do then in addition to what I am already doing then?
I am adding CO2 through an inline atomizer which is connected to the inflow of the filter. Thats CO2 travels into the filter and gets dissolved. The filter outlet is then connected to a reactor where any undissolved CO2 gets completely dissolved in there. So regarding CO2 dissolution there is nothing more I can do and taking into consideration that my drop checker is yellow and my pH profile shows a pH drop of more than 1.0 in an hour, then I have no idea on what else I should do for better dissolution or increased dissolution or if I increase the CO2 will kill me fauna.
Next is the flow/distribution. How will I increase flow if the spraybar at the back of my tank pumps out water from a filter 1000 L/h into a 40L tank! I can see the plants moving with water flow and I can see that on substrate level as well. So any more water flow will either uproot the plants or suck the fish, which by the way are struggling with the current. So I have no other ideas regarding flow or if I should increase flow.
Nutrients! That is easy! I dose with EI, I use an online calculator that suggests grams in solution, I add more than the recommended grams to the solution and I double dose every day to ensure adequate amount! Surely I can't go wrong there!
What is there left? Light! I have no melting, I have no algae related directly to high light and all of my plants are growing slowly and not even one of the plants that are suppose to be bushy are like that.
I think my only solution is a PAR meter and I can't afford one. Why do I think its a light problem? Because one member in this forum measured that at 40cm the Grobeam 600 measures 35 micromols at substrate level. My grobeam 600 is 35cm from substrate but a glass lid with condensation is blocking some light from reaching the substrate. Now how many micromols do you think reach the substrate?
Please take into account that the light intensity was at 35% and 55cm above substrate. I gradually increased the light intensity and then dropped the light closer to the substrate and all these were done thought a couple of months and the plant health was better....in fact, the plants were melting due to very low light and at least now there is no melting. Furthermore, I might be a novice but I have "useless" experience for 15 years on aquatic plants! Most of the times I have bad flow, low co2 and inadequate fertilization. This caused algae problems but I never complaint about growth....so even though I have never succeeded before, I surely know that the growth rate is very little.
So where can I improve things I see no room for improvement.....increasing the flow will uproot my plants and increasing the pH will mean a drop from 7.51 pH to 6.0 pH while I am currently droping the pH from 7.51 to 6.46....so what else?
What else should I do then in addition to what I am already doing then?
I am adding CO2 through an inline atomizer which is connected to the inflow of the filter. Thats CO2 travels into the filter and gets dissolved. The filter outlet is then connected to a reactor where any undissolved CO2 gets completely dissolved in there. So regarding CO2 dissolution there is nothing more I can do and taking into consideration that my drop checker is yellow and my pH profile shows a pH drop of more than 1.0 in an hour, then I have no idea on what else I should do for better dissolution or increased dissolution or if I increase the CO2 will kill me fauna.
Next is the flow/distribution. How will I increase flow if the spraybar at the back of my tank pumps out water from a filter 1000 L/h into a 40L tank! I can see the plants moving with water flow and I can see that on substrate level as well. So any more water flow will either uproot the plants or suck the fish, which by the way are struggling with the current. So I have no other ideas regarding flow or if I should increase flow.
Nutrients! That is easy! I dose with EI, I use an online calculator that suggests grams in solution, I add more than the recommended grams to the solution and I double dose every day to ensure adequate amount! Surely I can't go wrong there!
What is there left? Light! I have no melting, I have no algae related directly to high light and all of my plants are growing slowly and not even one of the plants that are suppose to be bushy are like that.
I think my only solution is a PAR meter and I can't afford one. Why do I think its a light problem? Because one member in this forum measured that at 40cm the Grobeam 600 measures 35 micromols at substrate level. My grobeam 600 is 35cm from substrate but a glass lid with condensation is blocking some light from reaching the substrate. Now how many micromols do you think reach the substrate?
Please take into account that the light intensity was at 35% and 55cm above substrate. I gradually increased the light intensity and then dropped the light closer to the substrate and all these were done thought a couple of months and the plant health was better....in fact, the plants were melting due to very low light and at least now there is no melting. Furthermore, I might be a novice but I have "useless" experience for 15 years on aquatic plants! Most of the times I have bad flow, low co2 and inadequate fertilization. This caused algae problems but I never complaint about growth....so even though I have never succeeded before, I surely know that the growth rate is very little.
So where can I improve things
I see no room for improvement.....increasing the flow will uproot my plants and increasing the pH will mean a drop from 7.51 pH to 6.0 pH while I am currently droping the pH from 7.51 to 6.46....so what else?Sounds like you have a CO2 leak, with such a high rate in such a small tank. This would explain you CO2 variation issues. I have 180litre tank and 1-2 bps (JBL ProFlora bubble counter) and that is enough to turn my drop checker the yellow side of green, so with 40l I would expect 180/40 -> 4.5 so about a 5th of my rate, so one bubble every 2-3 seconds should be enough. If using a 2Kg FE you should be getting 400-500 days life out of it.
I have had all type of CO2 leaks, causing CO2 variations and resulting algae. I have had leaks from check valves, bubble counter seals, bubble counter connections, cracking bubble counters and all cause high variable bubble rate and blue-green-yellow drop checker depending temperature/day of week/colour of underwear etc. Final give away something was wrong was (apart from BBA algae) a 2Kg FE lasting 23 days, normally about 100 days or more. All very confusing.
Finally I dunked all the CO2 apparatus in water and immediately the problem is revealed (use fairy liquid water to test FE connections, don't dunk under water !!!) a fine stream of CO2 bubbles leaking from the joints. Had some leaks that required wiggling the pipes before gas poured out. I sealed some of the joints with silicone thread sealer (Fernox LS-X), but it did cause some plastics to craze and crack, so be careful and once done and all passed the dunk test. I can reliably 100% every time set my bps to get drop checker off blue (less than 1bps), green 1bps and finally green-yellow at about 1-2bps. Since doing so BBA had gone and my tank is high light.
So, I still think you have a CO2 issue, especially at that high bps in such small tank, and too much light (for the CO2 you achieving).
Your tank should be constant temperature or else you may suffer CO2 variation issues. Why are you getting a variation, your heater should keep it spot on ? Mine stays 25C all year, except maybe occasionally in summer where it can get much higher.
This is because I had no heater since it was the summer....now the weather is getting cooler but no need for a heater since the aquarium is at 23 degrees Celsius....even if I add a heater, it will be at 22 degrees but temperature changes thought the days slowly so is it considered as a co2 fluctuation?
Last time I checked for leaks I didn't find any.....I will check again but I am positive I wont find any...
Don't forget that the reason I have such a high injection rate was because in the summer my temps were up to 27 degrees and at that temp the water holds less gasses but now at 23 degrees the pH drop in much better....
Even though I might have a co2 leak...which I doubt it but I will check....the DC and the pH profile show adequate CO2 injection regardless of the injection rate!
Last time I checked for leaks I didn't find any.....I will check again but I am positive I wont find any...
Don't forget that the reason I have such a high injection rate was because in the summer my temps were up to 27 degrees and at that temp the water holds less gasses but now at 23 degrees the pH drop in much better....
Even though I might have a co2 leak...which I doubt it but I will check....the DC and the pH profile show adequate CO2 injection regardless of the injection rate!
But with such a high bubble rate into such a small tank, there is an issue somewhere, your bps should be below 1bps. (unless your bubbles are extremely small).
I think your less gas with temperature is not really significant, with in the scheme of things. I make approximate 10% less at 27C than 23C, so not really significant (23C -> 1.5, 27C -> 1.3 thus 10% less).
Graph from here.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1148.html
Ok...so as to get back to the problem....BBA
This is what Tom Barr recommends:
1.Good stable CO2. This cannot be stressed enough.
2. To get rid of what BBA is there, you can do a large water change and use easy carb or Excel and spray some any exposed surfaces for maybe 15-30 sec.
3. I trim off any leaf that is infested.
4. If you cannot get at some of the BBA in the lower reaches of the aquarium, then pippetting some peroxide(H2O2) and spot treating when the filter is "off" can work pretty good.
5. Anything that can be easily removed and bleached or excel sprayed on it should be done.
6. Clean filters
7. Make sure water changes are done often and the tank is kept clean.
What does it mean by stable CO2? Even better, what is fluctuating CO2?
This is what Tom Barr recommends:
1.Good stable CO2. This cannot be stressed enough.
2. To get rid of what BBA is there, you can do a large water change and use easy carb or Excel and spray some any exposed surfaces for maybe 15-30 sec.
3. I trim off any leaf that is infested.
4. If you cannot get at some of the BBA in the lower reaches of the aquarium, then pippetting some peroxide(H2O2) and spot treating when the filter is "off" can work pretty good.
5. Anything that can be easily removed and bleached or excel sprayed on it should be done.
6. Clean filters
7. Make sure water changes are done often and the tank is kept clean.
What does it mean by stable CO2? Even better, what is fluctuating CO2?
Stable CO2 means say 30ppm CO2 all over the tank at lights on and staying at 30ppm whilst the lights are on. Achieving both takes some practice and experimentation.
You will be surprised how quickly CO2 levels can change. I once gassed my fish, due to CO2 piping leaks, and had a massive bubble rate to try and get CO2 into the tank and got a well and truly yellow drop checker. Fish were all gasping at the surface and clown loaches sitting on the plants lethargically breathing fast. Within a minute or two of putting my air stone on the CO2 levels had dropped enough for all fish returned to normal, though drop checker obviously remained yellow. Anyway my drop checker is like below every day at lights on, no fish issues.
Actually in the "best part" of the tank (near front of tank on left hand side where spray bar enters) the drop checker is like this at lights off, again no fish issues.
Also CO2 needs to be same all over the tank. I ended up getting a 3000l/hr power head as I discovered I could place this drop checker in certain places in my tank (despite having 2100l/hr flow in a 180litre tank) and it would only manage a greenish-blue colour. Plants in these areas got BBA also indicating poor CO2 levels and distribution. Addition of power head and BBA not a problem now.
You will be surprised how quickly CO2 levels can change. I once gassed my fish, due to CO2 piping leaks, and had a massive bubble rate to try and get CO2 into the tank and got a well and truly yellow drop checker. Fish were all gasping at the surface and clown loaches sitting on the plants lethargically breathing fast. Within a minute or two of putting my air stone on the CO2 levels had dropped enough for all fish returned to normal, though drop checker obviously remained yellow. Anyway my drop checker is like below every day at lights on, no fish issues.
Actually in the "best part" of the tank (near front of tank on left hand side where spray bar enters) the drop checker is like this at lights off, again no fish issues.
Also CO2 needs to be same all over the tank. I ended up getting a 3000l/hr power head as I discovered I could place this drop checker in certain places in my tank (despite having 2100l/hr flow in a 180litre tank) and it would only manage a greenish-blue colour. Plants in these areas got BBA also indicating poor CO2 levels and distribution. Addition of power head and BBA not a problem now.
Mr. Teapot
Member
- Joined
- 30 Apr 2013
- Messages
- 461
If someone else's experience helps, I accidentally brought on a big BBA bloom by reducing my CO2 injection rate before I added livestock. I was running the injection rate pretty high whilst I had no fish. No signs of stress in the plants for over a week after I reduced. Two types of algae resulted: masses of BBA and some brown diatom.
It took a fairly long process to get rid of it but ended up just disappearing from the tank after a couple of months of stable conditions and some syringed excel on the worst bits.
It took a fairly long process to get rid of it but ended up just disappearing from the tank after a couple of months of stable conditions and some syringed excel on the worst bits.
That is exactly what I did and exactly what happened to me!
How did you resolve this?
Stable CO2 means say 30ppm CO2 all over the tank at lights on and staying at 30ppm whilst the lights are on. Achieving both takes some practice and experimentation.
You will be surprised how quickly CO2 levels can change. I once gassed my fish, due to CO2 piping leaks, and had a massive bubble rate to try and get CO2 into the tank and got a well and truly yellow drop checker. Fish were all gasping at the surface and clown loaches sitting on the plants lethargically breathing fast. Within a minute or two of putting my air stone on the CO2 levels had dropped enough for all fish returned to normal, though drop checker obviously remained yellow. Anyway my drop checker is like below every day at lights on, no fish issues.
Actually in the "best part" of the tank (near front of tank on left hand side where spray bar enters) the drop checker is like this at lights off, again no fish issues.
Also CO2 needs to be same all over the tank. I ended up getting a 3000l/hr power head as I discovered I could place this drop checker in certain places in my tank (despite having 2100l/hr flow in a 180litre tank) and it would only manage a greenish-blue colour. Plants in these areas got BBA also indicating poor CO2 levels and distribution. Addition of power head and BBA not a problem now.
Ok so I get what you are saying....it does make sense!
I forgot to add one small detail....please don't shoot me for forgetting this
I stopped adding Excel from one day to the other. So I added 5ml of Excel for a long time and then suddenly I stopped dosing because I added shrimp and did not want to kill them.
Yep that would probably cause algae as well. The plants get used to the rate of food/light/CO2 they are being provided, you then stop/reduce them and the plants carry on consuming at the rate they are used to immediately start suffering deficiencies.
Also Excel has slight algae reducing properties when being dosed. There are plenty of reports of people who are suffering algae issues (no shrimp though) double dosing Excel to bring the algae under control.
Mr. Teapot
Member
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- 30 Apr 2013
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- 461
There was obviously a lot of pollution from the melt so I kept up with my 25-30% water change twice a week, removed any unhealthy looking plants/leaves. I was pretty concerned with keeping oxygen levels high so the filter could process any of the resulting pollution (night aeration, surface skimmer) . Ended up spot dosing Excel on two or three occasions with a syringe on the really bad areas including the HC. Personally, I don't like the idea of using it on a long-term basis. There was a lot of BBA on the wood which I ended up just forgetting and just slowly disappeared on its own. Tank is completely clear of it now. I think stability is really key. My plants seem to be pretty adaptable but grumble like mad if anything changes too much and too fast.
I think you're doing well. With your approach, you'll find your magic formula in no time.
Some people report that just one lighting period with no CO2 can cause algae ie when the CO2 tank runs out.
When I set up my CO2, due to persistent leaks, I had wildly fluctuating CO2 levels varying from yellow drop check and gasping fish to blue drop checker. Yes I got BBA appearing on most things old leaves, hardscape etc.
Once I got CO2 levels stable ie fixed all the leaks, BBA does not appear on new leaves and hardscape.
So if I see my pH staying at 6.42 thoughout the loght period it means I am stable right?
Also if I have an increase or decrease of 0.1 pH is that ok?
Lastly, co2 is off one hour before lights off and this causes the pH to go from 6.43 to 6.85 in one hour...is that bad?
