How Effective is ADA Powersand?

[plantbrain]

Tom just a quick question popped up to my head 🙂 Isn't the case you do not see difference because you change your plants too frequently? 🙂

Not really, because the argument is that these additives and PS enhance O2 diffusion etc, so if you trim roots and grow plants quick, then you'd see reduced growth real quick. Once the roots are in place, then the roots pump far more O2 into the sediment than a heavily trimmed aquarium with uprooting trim methods. Then the roots need to regrow back into the sediment............and the sediment will have lower O2/higher redox.

So if you leave the plants alone and do not up root, you'd expect a higher O2 value and higher Redox value in the sediment. Which is typical of ADA's trim methods, they do not espouse dutch style trim methods as a rule.

So this is actually opposite of what you may have been thinking.
It supports my argument actually :idea:

I've used PS on longer term tanks that get in frequent trims/and mostly topping.
I did not see any long term subtle enhance I could honestly tell another hobbyists " Yea, it helped".
I'd be guessing out my butt on that one, that would not be honest of me.

But I will say this: the plant roots play the dominating role here, not some whacky chemical additives or cables/larger grain sediments.

Put another way, I prefer to have natural plant systems add O2 to the sediments and not chemicals or 2 types of sediments that often end up mixed after a few years. Now many ADA folks redo their tanks 1-2 years in, I want things that will last and be able to handle a variety of trimming methods. Some folks do not mind.

Still, I do not think the powersand harms planted tanks, but it does not help either.
No one has shown that to date. We also know based on what is in the PS, there's not much as far as nutrients, it's just dead space, this leaves the argument to end up the same as heat cables.

With heat cables, you can throttle and change the flow rates.......thereby change the O2 from top in the water column into the sediment.

Since FEW, if hardly ANY ADA fan boys(I suppose there might be a fan girl or two) ever used cables or measure redox in sediments, this point is mute to many. But it does offer a simple method to see if the O2/flow characters play any significant role on this point. There's also curiously never been any support for cables in the last, well, 34 years since Dupla introduced them. But like ADA, Dupla got a lot of other things correct and enhanced the hobby.
I suspect ADA is aware of this, but the bottom line is that they conveniently ignore nature and plant's roots to promote the chemicals(Penac? Good grief...) and this product. I add plants and let them control the system, they do a fine job if they have the basic building blocks.

 

[sWozzAres]

Well, what is Science and where did it come from? Philosophers actually.
But there's a big difference between those folks.....and the "arm chair" variety

I believe Einstein was an "arm chair" philosopher, passing the days sitting about in his patent office. He did very little testing 😉

And don't forget about all those tests that turn out to be flawed, faster than light neutrino's spring to mind 🙂

 

[viktorlantos]

Tom, the reason why i wrote that earlier, because i've seen that a couple times that Aqua Soil Amazonia itself slows down the growth after a few months. Even with EI. If i boost the soils with bottom fertilizers then the carpeting plants will swich up to the next gear again.

Experienced this with Eleocharis Parvula multiple times. But since then i use it on other carpeting plants too when i see things slowing down.

So then substrates could be at least as useful as these bottom sticks. But they not last forever. Most of the factory recommendations fails. These substrates may last for 3-5 months rather than 6-12 months what most of the manufacturers tells us. Same for the sticks only a few months boost.

Will the extra pennys worth this extra few months for growth speed? For some maybe.
But then you say you're not experience any difference in growth. I thought i just give my experience too 😉

ps: i usually use Tropica or ADA substrates under Aqua Soils

 

[Aquadream]

After some research on PS it seem to me that it will not harm any aquarium indeed, but it will harm many bank accounts. Been just a fertilizer additive pumice dip I think would be cheaper and just as "effective" if the folks learn how to replenish the substrates with other means.
However one point is better with PS. When plant roots are attached to the PS pumice pieces it is much harder to uproot them out of the AS. I find AS to be possibly the best aquatic substrate, but it does not keep small plants for long.

 

[plantbrain]

I believe Einstein was an "arm chair" philosopher, passing the days sitting about in his patent office. He did very little testing 😉

And don't forget about all those tests that turn out to be flawed, faster than light neutrino's spring to mind 🙂

So you are trying to tell me that some baloney made up by ADA and Dupla about flow through the sediment...........marketing steer manure...........is on the same level as Einstein and theoretical physic? Arm chair philosophers are common on the web, full of speculation and not much substance, few have doubted Einstein of substance/intellect. If you cannot see the difference, I do not know what to tell you.

 

[plantbrain]

Tom, the reason why i wrote that earlier, because i've seen that a couple times that Aqua Soil Amazonia itself slows down the growth after a few months. Even with EI. If i boost the soils with bottom fertilizers then the carpeting plants will swich up to the next gear again.

The only thing that declines in AS over time I could find, was NH4.

I have no issues growing carpeting plants like hair grass and a dozens of other species.
See the 120 gal dutch tank and my 180 Gal is 6 year old AS now, you can see the growth of the Starougyne over 9-10 days from vicious mow to regrowth:

This sediment is 6 years old now, I do not add anything to the sediment.



5 days later:


10 days later:


I figure after the last 2 years(so the sediment was 4 year's old then) of growing this same plant...........I'd seem some slow down if what you say is true, no?
I'm just not seeing it.

This plant is a very strong root feed if you subscribe to the sediment root systems and such. Much like a Crypt.

So then substrates could be at least as useful as these bottom sticks. But they not last forever. Most of the factory recommendations fails. These substrates may last for 3-5 months rather than 6-12 months what most of the manufacturers tells us. Same for the sticks only a few months boost.

Jobes sticks have been used for 25 years in planted tanks, same type of thing, at least you are adding fertilizers........ not hard to reason that will have a positive influence on growth.
I've done the best hair grass with plain old sand. It is not a picky plant.

Will the extra pennys worth this extra few months for growth speed? For some maybe.
But then you say you're not experience any difference in growth. I thought i just give my experience too 😉

ps: i usually use Tropica or ADA substrates under Aqua Soils

If it's just an extra penny's worth, how much is that?
I'm mowing the lawn quite often and have detailed it in several threads over the years, there's no added effects based on my local friends' aquariums who are hardcore ADA fan boys and importers of ADA.

I have several tanks to compare and I have faster rates of growth, maybe I have magic tap water?

I mean after 6 years.........the plants still grow real well. I mow monthly or every 2 months basically.
I find better consistent results after 6 months.

Another thing about ADA AS+PS, the PS is added mostly to the rear section, not the front.

So you have a thinner but ADA AS layer lacking PS under neath then the rear is different.

Since ADA As is in fact, clay.....and you can make clay balls out of it if you wish and mash it together, perhaps folks might be mashing it together some. I try to keep it light and fluffy, but I have solid clay regions in my 180 Gal, the soil is fairly old now. I don't have issues.

 

[Morgan Freeman]

You know those stripes on cars that make it go super fast? That's how PS works.

VVRRRRRROOOOOM.

 

[Emyr]

haha. brilliant. think there is quite a balanced and effective review and range of opinions on this thread now, really useful.

 

[plantbrain]

I simply ask questions: how might a hobbyists test to see if it is effective or the maker's claims are supportable?

I've always stated you should prove it to yourself and be skeptical, then you'll know and be able to solve your own questions and know what the test results were, you learn by doing, not by mere belief and trust. I question most everything. Particularly myself, can I say without much doubt.........honestly.........that the PS is doing anything regarding flow and circulation benefits? Nutrients? Long Term stability? (These are all classic Dupla heater cable marketing claims as well, I find that most curious)

I have tested both PS and AS......one is loaded with nutrients and last a long long time, there's support that this works and folks can and have tested it.........the other does not and has no support for the claims.

ADA has a number of hokey products and a number that are quite good.
Balance? Well, some work and are likely good reasonable items, others are much more dubious.
This was true with Dupla 20 years before.
They got somethings right and some things they missed.

So try the tank without PS and see.

I have several tanks using ADA As alone, there is no associated issues of any sort. Using PS did not enhance any tank I have had over short or the long term. I've seen a few long term tanks that are a mess due to moving and migration of the PS up from replanting and uprooting. If you do not plan on uprooting your plants.........for a few years..........okay.......but the roots are more stable because you do not uproot and trim them also, and roots.......add plenty of O2 and stability on their own, so how do you get around that difference?

I need something a lot more concrete before I tell folks and argue for the use of powersand.
Racing stripes alone will not do it for me.

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

You know those stripes on cars that make it go super fast? That's how PS works.

VVRRRRRROOOOOM.

appreciated!

 

[Mark Evans]

I'll come in nice and simple.

I've used ADA power sand, and thought WOW!!!

Then I set up another layout, same size tank, smiler plants etc....no power sand. I thought....WOW!!!!!

I was sold on it initially, but to be honest, it's damn expensive, and for me, does not give anything extra in terms of plant health....

I do however, rely on ADA aquasoil. Now they do work, but then most Aquasoils do. Yes, plants can be grown without AS, but it gives me 'breathing room' missed dosing etc...

My statements cannot be 100% accurate, as I don't tend to keep layouts all that long, but from the 'short term' perspective, save ya money!

Instead, spend that £70-130 (bag size depended) on either more aquasoil to create depth, or plants.

 

[plantbrain]

I'll come in nice and simple.

I've used ADA power sand, and thought WOW!!!

Then I set up another layout, same size tank, smiler plants etc....no power sand. I thought....WOW!!!!!

I was sold on it initially, but to be honest, it's damn expensive, and for me, does not give anything extra in terms of plant health....

I do however, rely on ADA aquasoil. Now they do work, but then most Aquasoils do. Yes, plants can be grown without AS, but it gives me 'breathing room' missed dosing etc...

My statements cannot be 100% accurate, as I don't tend to keep layouts all that long, but from the 'short term' perspective, save ya money! and tat's from an ADA fanboy!!!

I tried something new with my 70 gal.

I needed to make a rather large hill in the middle, rather than using 2 extra bags of ADA aqua soil, I used a mesh bag of 2 cm lava rock. This mesh bag allows me to remove the lava in the future and reuse the aqua soil unlike a layering without any mesh between them.

Several folks in out local club hated when they pulled up bits of the Power sand.
So they placed stainless steel mesh wire popular with moss squares for shrimp tanks etc, and used that to prevent the power sand from moving and keeping the layers distinct.

The bag of lava cost me 2$ however. Since there are no nutrients actually in power sand, something I and others have tested, lava fulfills the same hypothetical........long term role. However, I did not do it for any other reason than to merely fluff up the middle without having to spend more $ on more ADA AS.
So you can do a cheap alternative that does not have the trade offs or issues even with the name brand products so they can be separated and do not move when you uproot things.

 

[Aquadream]

I recently made new pots with HC on the New AS. Compared to the old AS the new does not work any near as well. The HC is stunted and small. The conditions have not been changed compared to the old cultures that I have grown. Only the substrate, New AS vs old AS.
So I am wondering if ADA did not lower the capabilities of AS only to promote the use of PS?

 

[George Farmer]

I'll come in nice and simple.

I've used ADA power sand, and thought WOW!!!

Then I set up another layout, same size tank, smiler plants etc....no power sand. I thought....WOW!!!!!

I was sold on it initially, but to be honest, it's damn expensive, and for me, does not give anything extra in terms of plant health....

I do however, rely on ADA aquasoil. Now they do work, but then most Aquasoils do. Yes, plants can be grown without AS, but it gives me 'breathing room' missed dosing etc...

My statements cannot be 100% accurate, as I don't tend to keep layouts all that long, but from the 'short term' perspective, save ya money! and that's from an ADA fanboy!!!

Great post mate.

 

[Mark Evans]

Great post mate.

Thanks George. I've just edited actually, adding 1 more sentence at the end to even it up for the retailer.

 

[whinnie]

is this true of power sand special as well? surely if it is then it would also make most of the bottom minerals redundant as these are in the special mix?

 

[plantbrain]

I recently made new pots with HC on the New AS. Compared to the old AS the new does not work any near as well. The HC is stunted and small. The conditions have not been changed compared to the old cultures that I have grown. Only the substrate, New AS vs old AS.
So I am wondering if ADA did not lower the capabilities of AS only to promote the use of PS?

Could be, but I think they heated, thus oxidized it a bit more to seal it up better to prevent the AS from turning to mush and other issues they have had in the past. I doubt it has much to do with promoting/sellign the PS, there's a limited amount of short term ferts that can be injected into pumice. Osmocoat etc, will last much longer.

As far as aerobic conditions etc, any pumice, lava, SMS, any porpous material will work if......that is the really the only reason to use it. And given the steep price for ADA pumice, vs anything we can buy at a garden center, I really do not see how folks support using power sand really. These same claims where used with heat cables also back when Dupla Fan boys ran amuck.

 

[plantbrain]

is this true of power sand special as well? surely if it is then it would also make most of the bottom minerals redundant as these are in the special mix?

Special has some clarifyer, some bacteria and the other "little" snake oils like "touramline" and "Penac".

I think promoting those last 2 products does more harm than good to ADA's brand and reputation.
They may as well sell diet pills and sexual enhancements. Powersand, clarifyers, liquid iron, etc........okay..........but..........this other stuff really has no basis.

Bacteria you can take from an existing tank or a local friends. Nothing better than live fresh stuff. Alum is cheap if you need a clarifyer, but why do folks need that? In the start you do massive water changes 2-3x a weeks for 1-2 months as per ADA's protocol............so bacteria and clarity should not be an issue.


Later, after 1-2 months, the bacteria etc is all there anyway, and if you add live plants from the start, they already are covered with ample bacteria.

 

[whinnie]

many thanks you explain things very well! i'll save myself £75 and spend it elsewhere 🙂