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Help needed for new dosing routine

Ok, I understand your example Ian, but scenario no. 1 doesn't correspond to my routine no. 1! Because with routine No. 1 (alternating macros with micros), I triple the amount of macros I dump in routine no. 2!

Here is routine No. 1 according to my real dosing and to your statements above:

Sunday 3 unit PO4, plants scoff 0.5.
Monday 3.5 PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 3 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 2.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros today then.
Tuesday 3 unit PO4 added, plants scoff 0.5.
Wednesday 3.5 PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 3 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 2.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros today then.
etc...

That's why I thought to add the "3 unit" macros just once a week, and micros every day: to have micros available more easily!! Look at my example routines at post #36 above: the routine No. 1 doses 3 units of macros every other day, not 1 unit!

I'll be waiting for your thoughts... thanks 🙂
 
fablau said:
Ok, I understand your example Ian, but scenario no. 1 doesn't correspond to my routine no. 1! Because with routine No. 1 (alternating macros with micros), I triple the amount of macros I dump in routine no. 2!

Here is routine No. 1 according to my real dosing and to your statements above:

Sunday 3 unit PO4, plants scoff 0.5.
Monday 3.5 PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 3 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 2.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros today then.
Tuesday 3 unit PO4 added, plants scoff 0.5.
Wednesday 3.5 PO4 left add 0.5 unit micros, which reacts with PO4, leaving 3 units PO4 and plants scoff 0.5 leaving 2.5 units PO4. Hmm no micros today then.
etc...

That's why I thought to add the "3 unit" macros just once a week, and micros every day: to have micros available more easily!! Look at my example routines at post #36 above: the routine No. 1 doses 3 units of macros every other day, not 1 unit!

I'll be waiting for your thoughts... thanks 🙂
Click to expand...
Im with Ian on this one...... Why invent your own method when there is a tried and tested method for you to use?

Two options...

One continue as you are and have your plants suffer

Or change to ACTUAL EI and your plants might be a lot better


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Sorry it was not clear from your post you were alternating macro & micro for routine 1.

However dosing 3 units of macro alternate daily is a waste of macro, the plants can't make use of it (0.5 units in my case) and left over will be reacted away with the micro the next day as well. This means no micro at all, as all reacted with PO4 and just wasting excess PO4 that plants can't use anyway.

So both of your schemes are no good, routine 1 never has and micro as it always reacts with PO4 and routine 2 has PO4 and no micro at beginning of week and micro only at end of the week. All bad for plants good for algae.

You need to dose one EI unit of macro & micro alternately so the plants have a "steady" amount of PO4 and micro during the week.

Of course the macro micro reaction is not 100% so there will be never zero PO4 or zero micro, but if you are trying to get healthy plants and not waste your fertilisers then EI is way forward.
 
fablau said:
I'll be waiting for your thoughts... thanks 🙂
Click to expand...

feel like I'm repeating myself.... You're still dosing every day with this alternate method, where is the benefit?

Instead of trying to understand it, and make a change, which essentially means you're relying on your own (clearly basic) understanding of the chemistry, why not just follow the tried and tested method which is idiot-proof?

I have no idea how quickly the PO4 reacts with the micro, or if it remains as reactive after days in the tank, and that's presumably key when you're talking about plants using nutrients before the reaction takes place.
 
I dont think the reaction with phosphates is key here, but more the bond of the micro nutrient to its chelator. Basically after some Hours the micros goes out of solution because the chelator bond Breaks down due to light, ph etc. I say this because the phosphate concentration in an ei tank does not vary that much And is not determining the amount of micro Available to the plants,even though the precipitation does occur. Again look at it as if the micros have a life of less than 48 hours So you need to replenish it.
 
ian_m said:
Sorry it was not clear from your post you were alternating macro & micro for routine 1.

However dosing 3 units of macro alternate daily is a waste of macro, the plants can't make use of it (0.5 units in my case) and left over will be reacted away with the micro the next day as well. This means no micro at all, as all reacted with PO4 and just wasting excess PO4 that plants can't use anyway.

So both of your schemes are no good, routine 1 never has and micro as it always reacts with PO4 and routine 2 has PO4 and no micro at beginning of week and micro only at end of the week. All bad for plants good for algae.

You need to dose one EI unit of macro & micro alternately so the plants have a "steady" amount of PO4 and micro during the week.

Of course the macro micro reaction is not 100% so there will be never zero PO4 or zero micro, but if you are trying to get healthy plants and not waste your fertilisers then EI is way forward.
Click to expand...

No worries, I got your concept anyway. Starting this week I will alternate as I did before, but this time I will give twice the amount of micros, because I was too lean before. I will keep you posted on that.

It is interesting though how I have never read anywhere about this possible interaction issue between PO4 and micros after several days of dosing from each other, I only read about possible issues by dosing them a few hours apart... Don't even Tom Barr has ever mentioned this issue. I will make some more research of my onw. Thanks!
 
Jose said:
I dont think the reaction with phosphates is key here, but more the bond of the micro nutrient to its chelator. Basically after some Hours the micros goes out of solution because the chelator bond Breaks down due to light, ph etc. I say this because the phosphate concentration in an ei tank does not vary that much And is not determining the amount of micro Available to the plants,even though the precipitation does occur. Again look at it as if the micros have a life of less than 48 hours So you need to replenish it.
Click to expand...

Yes, That's exactly what I know Jose, and that's why I wanted to try to dose micros every day: to lower at minimum the loss of chelator. I always read around about how easily micros can precipitate, etc... But never read about similar issues for macros... My experimental routine was just an experiment, but I can assure you, I thought a lot about it. After 30 years playing with planted tanks I cannot be considered such a beginner to "invent" my own fertilization routine from nothing!

Thanks again to everyone for the constructive feedback received.
 
Tom Barr recomends macro dosing at least twice a week. This just prevents any precipitation issues weather it is with micros or with calcium in hard waters. Once a week I think is not enough to make sure it will stay in the water through the week.
 
Jose said:
Tom Barr recomends macro dosing at least twice a week. This just prevents any precipitation issues weather it is with micros or with calcium in hard waters. Once a week I think is not enough to make sure it will stay in the water through the week.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I haven't read that, but makes sense. Thank you!
 
Sorry, just to clarify, the bit about preventing precipitation I havent read from Tom Barr but is my conclusion from what others say around here specially Darrel. There seems to be some precipitation of phosphates in hard water due to the Ca present. This is why if you have hard water youll probably need more P. Tom Barr doesnt give detailed explanations many times, I guess he doesnt want to get deep into the science and just goes straight into the practical bit. I believe he has just tested out what works best and EI is the result.
 
Jose said:
There seems to be some precipitation of phosphates in hard water due to the Ca present
Click to expand...
Not sure it is due to precipitation per se being the issue, but very high levels of Ca can prevent plants taking up PO4.
 
I know some people do very high doses of EI. Won't that mean that Calcium levels would be high, preventing uptake of Phosphates? Or is it a sliding scale thing, with improper balance between the two being the problem? I'm way out of my depth here with the chemistry, so it is just my off-the-wall observation, and would love to understand!
 
naughtymoose said:
I know some people do very high doses of EI. Won't that mean that Calcium levels would be high, preventing uptake of Phosphates? Or is it a sliding scale thing, with improper balance between the two being the problem? I'm way out of my depth here with the chemistry, so it is just my off-the-wall observation, and would love to understand!
Click to expand...

I dont think the balance/ratio between the two(Ca/PO4) is important. Just that theres enough or more than enough P for plants. So if water is really hard you might want to try 2xEI P dose.
I think more important problems arise in hard water related to co2. With regards to P and micros you can just dose some more.
 
ajm83 said:
So does that mean that it is pointless using an all-in-one product such as TNC Complete if the pH of the tank is 7.5 or so?
Click to expand...
No, most common (cheaper) chelated elements used EDTA, which at pH of 7.5 is approx 50% chelated (see graph below), hopefully the remaining 50% being available to plants (and not reacting with macros). EDTA is also broken down by light, which is why micros must be stored in the dark, but super handy as when lights are on and plants need food, EDTA releases the micros...
iron%20chelate.png
 
fablau said:
Does the same apply to other micros besides Fe?
Click to expand...
Yes other micros, they "unchelate" upon pH change and/or light but unlike iron do not generally react with macros, thus stay available to plants.
 
May 31, BBA UPDATE: gone. Yes, BBA is gone! Here is what I have done to make it disappear from my tank for the past month:

1. Got back to regular EI schedule by daily alternating macros with micros. Dosing 1/3 less than the recommended EI, just because I perform water change every 2 weeks.

2. Four weeks ago, after water change, I added recommended dose of Excel (the high dosage recommended after water change). That destroyed completely all BBA I had, but also damaged some of my Vals (too bad!) that have now recovered 🙂

3. Raised Co2 a little until I could see pearling on plants (tanks Tom for the tip I read on another thread somewhere!). As a reference, I raised Co2 to reach 80ml per minute. And I'll keep it that way from now on!

So... this has been my recipe to get rid of BBA after 8 months of struggling!

I think the following points helped a big deal:

1. Excel helped to get rid of everything bad was out right at that moment (BBA)

2. Raising Co2.

3. Getting back into regular fert routine without being afraid of "toxicities". I mean, all my plants got better, Alternathera Reinikii included which was struggling in a long time! In particular I think the increase of micros helped the most.


I hope my experience could be useful for other people. I'll keep watching my tank to see if that damn BBA will ever come back, but so far so good! Thanks again to anyone on this forum for the help given.

Best,
Fab.
 
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