Getting Started with Ferts Dosing

[erwin123]

I too was influenced by EI in this forum. So I purchased APT EI and started dosing a what was close to EI levels and yes, some plants grew well, but the sensitive plants were always tricky.

Then someone in this forum shared the AGA2019 video by Vin Kutty I found really useful (video no longer in the link provided). In the video he also references his conversations with Dennis Wong and the technique of a "relatively" lean water column dosing coupled with rich substrate. (APT Complete+strong light+CO2 is 'relatively lean'). But no worries, all you need to do is to read through the 55 page Rotala Kill Tank Thread to get the gist of it: Rotala Kill Tank

I tried it, and found that it worked for me, and more importantly, the amount of tank maintenance I have to do is reasonable. 😛

 

[MichaelJ]

Thanks Michael. I think it was your advice that led me to the 4-6dGH from my earlier post. If the lower end of that is okay,

Sure is... if you aim for the lower end (4) just make sure you feed your invertebrates a varied diet that include some calcium. Such as algae wafers with calcium supplements.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[_Maq_]

Having said that Amano and Barr's regime have been proven to work, let's not forget that.

Even if I admit that* it's not the end of story. You can certainly kill a fly with with a rocket-propelled grenade. Still, you can't avoid a feeling that there's still some space for improvement...

I’m not after fast growth in such a small tank.

In my country aquarist community, there are many who settled at 10 mg/L CO2. Such tanks don't look that hyped, not full of bubbles, safer for animals. Still, keeping plants gets way easier.

On a scientific note: There are papers which studied plants' growth depending on CO2 concentration. They have found that the effectiveness of CO2 injection follows Michaelis-Menten kinetics, with half-saturation constants largely between 100-200 µM (i.e. 4.4 to 8.8 mg/L). It means that concentrations higher than that still can improve growth but the effectiveness of such enhancement decreases rapidly. Also, concentrations around 1000 µM (44 mg/L) have been demonstrated more harmful than beneficial - to plants! Not to mention animals.

*) From time to time, I happen to read barrreport. I suppose it's a forum of EI users. It's full of reports and questions on various problems, most often perhaps on nutrient imbalances. So, although many aquarists have achieved respectable results with this approach, I don't consider it an immaculate method. Too many uncertainties, unsolved questions. And, pardon me for my straight words, if someone needs 30+ mg/L CO2 for making plants grow, it's not a testimony of any skill, rather the contrary.

 

[MichaelJ]

Even if I admit that* it's not the end of story. You can certainly kill a fly with with a rocket-propelled grenade. Still, you can't avoid a feeling that there's still some space for improvement...

In my country aquarist community, there are many who settled at 10 mg/L CO2. Such tanks don't look that hyped, not full of bubbles, safer for animals. Still, keeping plants gets way easier.

On a scientific note: There are papers which studied plants' growth depending on CO2 concentration. They have found that the effectiveness of CO2 injection follows Michaelis-Menten kinetics, with half-saturation constants largely between 100-200 µM (i.e. 4.4 to 8.8 mg/L). It means that concentrations higher than that still can improve growth but the effectiveness of such enhancement decreases rapidly. Also, concentrations around 1000 µM (44 mg/L) have been demonstrated more harmful than beneficial - to plants! Not to mention animals.

While I am not familiar with Michaelis-Menter kinetics...it appears to be following the law of diminishing return - in mathematics technically known as an asymptotic function. For example:



A very common phenomenon. The trick for all of us is to find the infliction point where the gradient becomes close to zero (i.e. the curve line becomes horizontal) - everything we do beyond that is either wasteful, potentially harmful or in best case just wont make an iota of difference. Of course, the location of that point dependents on various factors such as plant mass, water parameters etc. but the infliction point tends to be much closer to zero than most of us would like to believe.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[erwin123]

Still, keeping plants gets way easier.

I totally agree that easy is best! Like many here, I have a (1) day job (2) family commitments. So all I want is a "recipe" that gives me nice plants with not too much effort. Any system like EI which requires weekly water changes is too effortful for me.

The recipe for me is:

(1) Aquasoil + osmocote.
(2) water column dosing using All-in-one fert in a bottle (diluted water but since you are not dosing ridiculous amounts, one bottle can last nearly a year)
(3) CO2
(4) More than 10x flow (flow is king!)
(5) Relatively soft water : Gh6, Kh3, 100ppm+

I'm not sure if the approach needs a 'name', but its basically what 2hr Aquarist/ Dennis Wong recommends.

Adding CO2 makes it much easier to grow plants consistently and its not that much effort. I have to refill the canister about every 6 months and clean the CO2 diffuser every 3 months.

 

[MichaelJ]

I totally agree that easy is best! Like many here, I have a (1) day job (2) family commitments. So all I want is a "recipe" that gives me nice plants with not too much effort. Any system like EI which requires weekly water changes is too effortful for me.

The recipe for me is:

(1) Aquasoil + osmocote.
(2) water column dosing using All-in-one fert in a bottle (diluted water but since you are not dosing ridiculous amounts, one bottle can last nearly a year)
(3) CO2
(4) More than 10x flow (flow is king!)
(5) Relatively soft water : Gh6, Kh3, 100ppm+



Adding CO2 makes it much easier to grow plants consistently and its not that much effort. I have to refill the canister about every 6 months and clean the CO2 diffuser every 3 months.

Totally agree with you @erwin123.... and like your approach.

My recipe for my two 150 L tanks:

1. Inert substrate
2. Low tech (no CO2)
3. Low light
4. 22 C
5. GMK UV filters in each tank running 24/7
6. Excellent nutrient distribution (flow) and continous oxygenation. Two HOB's and two patMini in each tank.
7. WC every two weeks (25-30%)
8. Dosing for two weeks at WC - front loaded. One is Tropica Specialized targeting 1 ppm of N (from NH4NO3), the other tank is targeting 2.5 ppm of N from MgNO3 with an occasional slosh of Specialized... hence the higher N target. (Yes! that will be fine for two weeks in a densely planted low tech tank with moderate stocking level!).
9. Soft acidic water (pH ~6.2 in both tanks) . Both tanks pure RO-DI water WC water raised to ~0.5 dKH and remineralized to 1.5 dGH, 4.5 dGH (the shrimp tank) respectively.
10. EC 120 us/cm (60 ppm TDS) and 170 us/cm (85 ppm TDS) respectively

Perfect? of course not! But I know it works and I will never burn out long term following this approach. Ok, I have a little bit of limited choices on plants... but thats all.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[MichaelJ]

In my country aquarist community, there are many who settled at 10 mg/L CO2. Such tanks don't look that hyped, not full of bubbles, safer for animals. Still, keeping plants gets way easier.

10 ppm seems quite reasonable.... I must say though, that if you grow some finicky plant species that in nature grow mostly emerged I can see how 10 ppm might not cut it for submerged growth.... but probably a rarity.

btw. what's the deal with the "In my country 's aquarist community" I would think our approaches and biases would be quite universal around the western world .... I certainly hear the same truths or falsehoods from American aquarists as I hear from Dutch or British aquarists....except the Americans tends to be more assertive even when they have absolutely no clue about what they are talking about… Just wondering....

Cheers,
Michael

 

[_Maq_]

Perfect? of course not!

Nearly identical with my method.

Ok, I have a little bit of limited choices on plants... but thats all.

Could you name some problematic species? You know, I can hardly resist my obsession to prove that any species can be successfully kept in low-tech.

I would think our approaches and biases would be quite universal around the western world

Perhaps among those who communicate in the universal language - English. But my country is small, the guiding members of our aquarist community know each other in person, and they value their personal experience over international ("American") stance. Par example, silica sand is the default substrate, tanks are mostly custom made and covered by lid, more measured approach to CO2 injection, negative opinion of anything Tom Barr says and suggests, ignorance of oxygen importance and organic pollution, almost complete ignorance of all microbial processes except nitrification, negligible infatuation by Takashi Amano's creations.

 

[MichaelJ]

Nearly identical with my method.

I must be doing something wrong then! .... Just kidding @_Maq_

Could you name some problematic species? You know, I can hardly resist my obsession to prove that any species can be successfully kept in low-tech.

I don't think I could name any plant that absolutely wouldn't work in a non-CO2 tank... However, especially with the combination of high(er) light as many more challenging stem plants prefer... they would have a hard time without CO2... not that they wouldn't grow just struggling and not be very aesthetically pleasing... but for most "CO2 required plants" I think it just comes down to coloration and more lush growth.... on a side note: it's interesting when you hit up Tropica's advanced plant section that "require CO2" pretty much all of them are in the 5-15 ppm bracket....

Of course my fellow Minnesotan member Dr. Shaw ( @Sudipta ) invalidate most of what I just said above by example:


To me, this super leanly dosed non-CO2 tank is a unicorn.... this tank is magical ❤️ ... most accomplished aquarists injecting CO2 wouldn't be able to accomplish this....astonishing...

If people like @Sudipta @_Maq_ @Happi and @dw1305 would put their heads together we could advance this hobby tremendously! Make it happen guys! 🙂


Merry Christmas Cheers,
Michael

 

[erwin123]

I've always thought that Sudipta's recipe requires
(1) low temps in the 19-20 degree C range
(2) Shallow tank
(3) Good surface agitation (HOB is best) for good gas exchange.
(4) hi-tec light levels.

Its good that he left the GDA on the left side so people don't think that his recipe gives you zero algae and perfect plants. Given that 19-20 degree temps usually inhibit GDA, the fact that there is GDA suggests a whole lot of light.

 

[_Maq_]

I don't think I could name any plan that absolutely wouldn't work in a non-CO2 tank...

Well, there's a group of plants which I generally avoid: cultivars with suppressed creation of chlorophyll. Plants like Hygrophila lancea Chai, Ludwigia inclinata White, Cryptocoryne wendtii Flamingo, etc. I think these artificial, in fact 'crippled' cultivars depend on enhanced light & CO2 to survive.
Apart from that, they say that Eriocaulon quinquangulare dies quickly without enhanced CO2. I haven't had the opportunity to check.

 

[_Maq_]

I've always thought that Sudipta's recipe requires
(1) low temps in the 19-20 degree C range

It is true that my tanks usually do well from autumn to spring - while temperatures like 17 to 20 °C - and difficulties sometimes appear in June. But I tend to believe it's rather the temperature change than the temperature itself which creates the problem. Microbial community gets disturbed from its equilibrium.

 

[MichaelJ]

But I tend to believe it's rather the temperature change than the temperature itself

No, I think it's the temperature itself.... O2 and CO2 solubility is a function of temperature.... however, when looking at curves it's important to keep in mind the range we are customarily dealing with (20-25 C).... In this range the difference is not huge when push comes to shove.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Bradders]

Of course my fellow Minnesotan member Dr. Shaw ( @Sudipta ) invalidate most of what I just said above by example:
View attachment 214121

That is amazing! Look at the colours, there is no CO2 and looks like a HOB filter. Truly beautiful.

 

[rdk1402]

Apart from 1 high energy tank (high light intensity and CO2 to support it), I run a dozen low energy tanks and doing so for decades.

I guess I am an EI advocate, also for low energy tanks. But the appeal for me is between the lines: plant biology and tank dynamics are too complex (at least for me) to worry about ratio's.

I don't follow the 'recommended' concentrations of EI and stick to a very crude 1000 : 100 : 20 :1 ratio: 1000 being water and CO2, 100 being nitrates and potassium, 20 the other macro's, 1 being iron and the other trace elements, as it doesn't make sense to add more manganese than nitrate or lots of extra nitrate when no CO2 gas is injected.

I don't lack an interest in ratio's and I'd instantly belief one is capable of growing e.g. Rotala wallichii, without CO2 gas but with strict water and mineral management. But I don't keep a dozen planted tanks because I enjoy mineral management.

I'm able to grow most plants in the hobby in plain sand (not so plain after a few months), diurnal and seasonal fluctuations of -by default strongly reduced intensity of- light and temperature, high water flow / continuous aeration, and frequent diluted tap water changes. Because of the dilution, I add some KNO3, KH2PO4 and MgSO4 in between the water changes to compensate.

EI surely doesn't answer my questions, but it does fit with my general approach to planted tank keeping: putting faith in nature to solve its problems.

 

[_Maq_]

No, I think it's the temperature itself.... O2 and CO2 solubility is a function of temperature....

Yes, that's certainly important. But let's look at it from another point, compare it with processes observed in nature.

In equatorial zone, temperatures are quite stable, and well above 20 °C. Still, the plants and fish can cope with diminished solubility of gasses quite well. Let's compare it with moderate climate. There's a distinct seasonality in such waters. In early spring, diatoms proliferate. They are followed by green algae or higher plants, depending on local conditions. During summer months, we can often observe several micro-periods when these or other forms of life dominate. I mean, as the temperature (and light) changes, all conditions are in a state of change, re-forming equilibrium. Yet some equilibrium is possible at any temperature if it's kept constant. Only temperature change provides opportunity to new species which were as yet suppressed.

That said, I'll consider heating one of my tanks to permanent temperature about 24 °C to compare health of sensitive species with those kept in my other tanks, most of the year with lower temperature. Maybe you're correct, though I rather don't think so at the moment.

 

[hasan66]

O zaman yanlış bir şey yapıyor olmalıyım! .... Şaka yapıyorum @_Maq_


CO2 olmayan bir tankta kesinlikle işe yaramayacak bir bitki ismi verebileceğimi sanmıyorum... Ancak, özellikle daha zorlu gövdeli bitkilerin tercih ettiği gibi yüksek(er) ışık kombinasyonuyla... CO2 olmadan zor bir dönem... zorlukla büyüyemeyecekleri ve estetik açıdan pek hoş olmayacakları anlamına gelmiyor ... ama "CO2 gerektiren bitkilerin" çoğu için bunun sadece renklenme ve daha bereketli bir büyüme ile ilgili olduğunu düşünüyorum.... bir yan not: Tropica'nın "CO2 gerektiren" gelişmiş tesis bölümüne baktığınızda hemen hemen hepsinin 5-15 ppm aralığında olması ilginçtir....

Elbette Minnesotalı üye arkadaşım Dr. Shaw ( @Sudipta ) yukarıda söylediklerimin çoğunu örnek olarak geçersiz kılıyor:
View attachment 214121

Bana göre, bu süper zayıf dozlu CO2 olmayan tank bir tek boynuzlu at .... bu tank büyülü ❤️ ... CO2 enjekte eden en başarılı akvaryumcular bunu başaramaz....şaşırtıcı...

@Sudipta @_Maq_ @Happi ve @dw1305 gibi kişiler şunu koyarsa kafa kafaya verirlerse bu hobiyi muazzam bir şekilde ilerletebiliriz! Bunu gerçekleştirin arkadaşlar!🙂


Mutlu Noeller Şerefe,
Michael

Merhaba Michael, nitrat gübresini nasıl yaptın? Nitratlarla ilgili dengeyi bulamadım. Nh/no3 kombinasyonunu yaptım ama işe yaramadı. Üre/no3 kombinasyonu işe yaramadı. Sonunda kendi kompostumu yapmaktan vazgeçeceğim. Üre ve no3 kombinasyonunda yapraklarda her zaman yosunlanma sorunu yaşanır. NH4/No3 kombinasyonunda yosunlanma sorunu görülmez ancak bu yanıklar bitkide bir anda meydana gelir. No3 tek başına kullanıldığında da aynı sorunlar ortaya çıkar. Yapraklarda yosun lekeleri ve akvaryum camında yosun lekeleri.

 

[hasan66]

I must be doing something wrong then! .... Just kidding @_Maq_


I don't think I could name any plant that absolutely wouldn't work in a non-CO2 tank... However, especially with the combination of high(er) light as many more challenging stem plants prefer... they would have a hard time without CO2... not that they wouldn't grow just struggling and not be very aesthetically pleasing... but for most "CO2 required plants" I think it just comes down to coloration and more lush growth.... on a side note: it's interesting when you hit up Tropica's advanced plant section that "require CO2" pretty much all of them are in the 5-15 ppm bracket....

Of course my fellow Minnesotan member Dr. Shaw ( @Sudipta ) invalidate most of what I just said above by example:
View attachment 214121

To me, this super leanly dosed non-CO2 tank is a unicorn.... this tank is magical ❤️ ... most accomplished aquarists injecting CO2 wouldn't be able to accomplish this....astonishing...

If people like @Sudipta @_Maq_ @Happi and @dw1305 would put their heads together we could advance this hobby tremendously! Make it happen guys! 🙂


Merry Christmas Cheers,
Michael

I give 6ppm nitrate to the aquarium weekly. Would it be beneficial if I give NH4 in a very small dose to prevent burns on the plants? For example, 0.01ppm NH4 in 1ppm nitrate. My current dose is as follows in 1ppm. 0.49ppm nitrate is 0.177ppm NH4. There are no fish in my tank. I am experimenting with the combination of No3/NH4 so as not to burn the plants. But I'm really tired of trying, I have nh4ci, nh4so4 and urea, but it didn't work, I wonder if this 0.177ppm nitrogen dose saturates the plants, the remaining 0.49 ppm nitrate accumulates and that's why the plants burn, I don't have a test kit, I didn't measure how much nitrogen it used.

 

[_Maq_]

Would it be beneficial if I give NH4 in a very small dose to prevent burns on the plants?

I'm not fully convinced that anything like ammonia burn exists. (Silence in the auditorium, please!) If yes, then it definitely depends on pH! The higher pH, the higher share of ammonia in respect to ammonium, which is probably harmless. You can see it in my recent experiment: In tank C - aquasoil, the level of ammoniacal nitrogen is very high. However, at pH well below dangerous zone almost all is in the form of ammonium, and no harm to plants occurs.

According my (very incomplete) testing, most plants can live happily with nitrogen solely in nitrate form. There are exceptions, though. I've positively demonstrated difference at least for Mayaca spec. and Tonina fluviatilis; these species require ammoniacal nitrogen to grow well. It seems that the presence of fish (a source of ammonia) is enough.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

So it looks like there’s many ways to approach this (understatement?) and as im new to it, I have the opportunity to try things out and see what works for me.

I’ve received a box of Solufeed 2:1:4. I’m going to add in very small quantities to the tank on a 3x weekly rate starting and just watch what happens. My co2 I’m still figuring out but hanging out on the lower end at the moment (maybe 15mg/l) as plants are growing well and fish happy.

I’ve got a canister filter running but added the HOB with some emersed plants in it and a bit of ceramic media, mainly just to get good surface agitation and flow. Weekly water changes as it’s easy and cheap.

Wish me luck and thanks for all the interesting discussions to read. 👍🏻