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FIne Tuning. FInding the balnce. High Tech, Carpet Plants, Advice needed.

DHenry

DHenry

Member
Joined
4 Dec 2009
Messages
93
Location
Brighton, UK
Hello,

Basically I am struggling to get HC and some other carpeting plants to establish in my tank. As well as seeking advice here I would be very interested in meeting an expert in my area to discuss. I will set out my tank parameters first, then explain a little about my tank and the problems I've been facing. Photos and video below.

tank: 40cm cube (60 litre)
substrate: tesco cat litter (clay) mixed with a bit of sand
filter: Fluval 204 with spray bar (rated 680lph)
powerheads: 2 x 300lph
Co2: DIY with glass diffuser below one of the powerheads which outputs through spray bar
Drop checker: glass, 4dkh solution, yellow/green
Lights: DIY high power LED's 8 x 3w. 6hr photo period
Ferts: Tropica Specialist 5ml per day
Water change 50% once a week

This tank was setup over a year ago with a single powerhead at 300lph to circulate the Co2 in addition to the Fluval 204 rated at 680lph and 5 x 3w high power LED's. I was dosing 25ml Tropica TPN+ once a week. I grew a carpet of HC emersed before flooding the tank. I also planted some Marsilea Hirsuta and Eleocharis Parvula among other plants. Once flooded things went relatively well. The Marsilea grew quickly as did the Eleocharis. I found the HC could be maintained but really didn't grow much. The HC began loosing weight before I cleaned out the filter. I found the flow was being restricted and once I had cleaned it out the HC recovered but still never looked as plump and green as it does when it is delivered. The Eleocharis grew well and spread all over the tank. The Marsilea also grew all over the tank but remained tall with 4 lobed leaves.

My wife had to go into hospital at this point and I knew I would have to neglect the tank. My main concern was avoiding an algal bloom so I decided to switch off the lights and leave it. 3 weeks later I returned to find that I had successfully avoided any algae but that most of the plants had perished aside from the Marsilea. I decided to nurse the tank back to health. I left the Marsilea to grow on its own and cleaned everything else with lots of water changes and plenty of Co2 for many weeks until I was satisfied that the tank was stable. I then took the decision to step things up a try to grow some more HC and perhaps improve on my last attempt.

I made the following improvements. I added a second 300lph powerhead to ensure total distribution. This added to the existing powerhead and filter gives me a claimed 1280lph in a 60 litre tank. Should be plenty. I added 3 additional 3w high power LED's to my light fixture taking me up to 24w. I switched my fert dosing from 25ml per week to 5ml per day (35ml per week total).

The immediate results of this update could be seen in the Marsilea. Before now the Marsilea was growing on average a height of 4-8 inches with large 4 lobed leaves. It was also growing up into the water instead of hugging the substrate. After the changes the new growth from the Marislea was 1-2" high mostly with a small single lobed leaf and the runners would press firmly against the substrate forcing their roots down deep (can be seen through the glass around the edges) Great I thought. A positive improvement. I have been very strict with my maintenance since the change to avoid any algae and so far so good. I have been cleaning the tank, remove and dead leaves etc and changing 50% of the water twice a week to begin with and now once a week.

I planted some very healthy looking HC, 1 pot of Utricularia, Glosso and Staurogene. It has been about 3 weeks since the HC has gone in and it has almost all disappeared. The Utricularia has also almost completely disappeared. The Glosso has only been in for one week so can't yet judge that. My drop checker is using 4dkh and is positioned 1" off of the substrate and is yellow/green. I have ample flow with loads of tiny bubbles flowing across the substrate. The circulation of water begins at the top rear with all outlets aimed at the front glass.

Flow: I think I can safely rule out flow, circulation and Co2. Or can I? I cannot see any way on improving this.

Ferts: Plants do not seem to be in need of ferts. All healthy and green. Am I limited by using an all-in-one fertilizer? Surely HC can be grown with an all-in-one? Or can it? Should I switch EI?

Light: Should the changes in the Marsilea be attributed to the additional lighting? Can insufficient light be my problem with the carpet plants? Using LED's is a bit of an unknown. Is there anyone local who might want to come help me measure the PAR at substrate? Should I try adding a few more LED's and see if my HC kicks into life?

Thank you for all and any advice. Daniel

Photos are not brilliant but intended to show flow. Watch video in 720p.
P2170086.jpg
 
I have only got HC to grow vibrantly when using EI dosing. I've had it grow in water with 25 ppm of nitrate and 6ppm+ of phosphate.

HC seem to only thrive when it gets ample Co2. There is more Co2 wastage from using power-heads to distribute it than popping the co2 diffuser below an external filter's intake strainer.

With regard to your light question, Marsilea will grow 2 leaves at the end of the stem and have a dark green appearance in low-light. In high light, however, it resembles a four leaf clover and is light green in colour and sends out runners much more rapidly.

I would up your light wattage ever so slightly but before doing so you need to ensure co2 is being distributed well and in a manner that cuts out wastage. I would never plant HC in an aquarium which relies on power-heads to distribute co2.
 
Thanks for the insights.

They are not technically powerheads in the traditional sense. They are small pumps made by Tunze. They use an impeller in the same way as a filter and i have fitted a spray bar to the output. I could run the Co2 into the filter however and see if it makes any difference.

The Marsilea was dark green, very tall and all had 4 leaves before I upped the light. They are now much shorter, bright green and have fewer leaves. The runners spread much quicker also.

If dosing an all-in-one can you top up with extra nitrates and phosphates?

Here is a photo showing the pump. The impeller is on the bottom. The Co2 rises, gets sucked into the impeller and sent out through a spray bar.
45e8a499.jpg
 
DHenry said:
Thanks for the insights.

They are not technically powerheads in the traditional sense. They are small pumps made by Tunze. They use an impeller in the same way as a filter and i have fitted a spray bar to the output. I could run the Co2 into the filter however and see if it makes any difference.

The Marsilea was dark green, very tall and all had 4 leaves before I upped the light. They are now much shorter, bright green and have fewer leaves. The runners spread much quicker also.

If dosing an all-in-one can you top up with extra nitrates and phosphates?

Here is a photo showing the pump. The impeller is on the bottom. The Co2 rises, gets sucked into the impeller and sent out through a spray bar.
45e8a499.jpg
Click to expand...

I would run the co2 directly through the filter. The co2 bubbles will be sliced in two many many times as they make there way through the filtration media. By the time they reach the output pipe they will be amply dissolved.

You could be losing a lot of co2 from using a spraybar because the carbonic acid will be gassing of into a co2 gas when it is subjected to the water rippling that spray bars create.

My advice would be to try out an inexpensive Fluval output nozzle (they are between £3 and £5) because these will create surface rippling but not to the extent that a spray bar does.

The more nitrates and phosphates you have the better so topping them up shouldn't be an issue. If the 'Tropica Specialist' product that you are using isn't telling you how much liquid you should add and how often then you might want to consider concocting your own ferts using tap/RO water and dry macro-nutrient salts.
 
I will try and get the Co2 running through the filter.

The existing Marsilea has 4 leaves. Most of the new shoots only have 1 leaf.

I may try adding some nitrate and phosphate next.
 
DHenry said:
I will try and get the Co2 running through the filter.

The existing Marsilea has 4 leaves. Most of the new shoots only have 1 leaf.

I may try adding some nitrate and phosphate next.
Click to expand...

The one's with one leaf *should* be a darker green. This is indicative of the plant not getting enough light.

You can purchase nitrate and phosphate macro-nutrient dry-salts from the Fluid Sensor online shop. You then can use the James' Planted Tank calculator here James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator to translate how much a given weight of nitrate/phosphate salt will provide in terms of mg/l concentration when added to water.
 
The new shoots are still rather new. I imagine they will darken somewhat. I will move the Co2 to the filter inlet this evening and look into ordering some dry-salts and making a nitrate/phosphate top up mix. Thanks again.
 
I've only seen benefits from upping my light so far. Everything has improved with no signs of algae. I will be moving the Co2 to the filter intake tonight and sorting out some additional ferts.
 
Co2 moved to filter intake. We will see what difference this makes. Some extra ferts in the post.
 
DHenry said:
Co2 moved to filter intake. We will see what difference this makes. Some extra ferts in the post.
Click to expand...

Be sure to prioritise the diversion of Co2 through your filters intake before upping the wattage of the lights.

Insufficiencies in Co2 and nutrient transportation from their source and to your plants create algal problems and issues with plant growth much quicker in a high-light aquarium compared to a lower light intensity aquarium. So it's best to sort out the Co2/nutrient distribution first and then see how things improve before changing anything else.
 
I didn't realise that moving the Co2 to run through the filter would make such a difference. I can no longer see any bubbles. Drop checker still looks good so we will see what happens this week. I have made up a batch of nitrate/phosphate at recommended ratio. A lot of people say that HC needs a lot of nitrate so we will keep an eye on things and top up the ferts if need be. Thanks again for the help.
 
HC doesn't especially need more NO3 than any other plant. This is another illusion of The Matrix. What happens is that distribution of nutrients and CO2 to the substrate is usually inadequate, so for the same reason that HC suffers from CO2 starvation it suffers poor uptake of all the other nutrients. Poor nutrient distribution is mitigated somewhat by the addition of higher nutrient dosing, which all plants will appreciate, not just HC. Higher CO2 uptake generates a higher nutrient uptake demand.

Cheers,
 
Interesting. Water circulation was something I addressed some weeks ago and this should be adequate. Anymore and it might get a little stormy in there. The water circulates from the top rear, down the front glass and back across the substrate. I thought that running the Co2 into the pump was sufficient but clearly not. Since moving it to the filter inlet the bubbles have gone from tiny to virtually none at all so I would take this to mean that the Co2 is getting properly dissolved into the water. My nitrate mix will be good to have as a boost if need be. I will observe and see what happens next. Thanks again.
 
Ok it has been a good few weeks. I have adjusted the title of the thread to better reflect the content.

Finding a proper balance in the tank seems to be what I am looking for. I feel I am 90% there but Glosso and HC are still not happy. Everything else is doing great. Co2 diffuses into the filter inlet. I have massive flow in a circular motion without any dead spots. My maintenance has been strict and regular. I dose daily with an all in one mixture and twice weekly with a homemade Nitrogen and Phosphate mix. The last change I made a week ago was to remove half of the ceramic media in my filter encase it was having an affect on my nitrogen levels.

Marsilea has never been happier and as well as growing short with a single lobe leaf has began to carpet nicely. Very pleased. The small amount of grass has also began to spread quickly. The Staurogene I planted is doing very well. Most of the large existing leaves have degraded but all of the new growth is bright green and very happy. I have trimmed this twice so far and replanted the tops which have all quickly rooted. By the end of the evening most of the plants are pearling. The Marsilea leaves build up large bubbles underneath, I also get bubbles on the Staurogene leaves.

4 or 5 weeks ago I planted some Glosso in the front to see if I would have any more luck than with the HC. It grew upwards, I trimmed and It grew up again. It doesn't look super healthy. It appears a slightly yellowish green and is not as plump as it should be. However, it often pearls. It is still not spreading either. The HC is growing but it quickly seems to turn quite dark and thin.

One thing I don't quite understand is how it seems as though one person can setup a tank with a single filter, some posh glass ware and a small Co2 diffuser at one end of the tank, dose TPN+ and grow a lush carpet of HC.

I am happy to listen to any suggestions. Anymore flow and plants would get uprooted. I may get an inline diffuser instead of having my ceramic diffuser under the filter inlet. My drop checker is borderline yellow. I am at the maximum Co2 my tank can deal with. I tried turning it up one more notch on the regulator but after a day the inhabitants were getting unhappy so i went back to where it has always been. Drop checker is always lime green bordering on yellow. Since moving the diffuser to the inlet I can no longer see any bubbles in the tank which suggests that the gas is getting properly dissolved. Perhaps I need to look at ferts. I dose Aqua Essentials Nuetro Plus at 10ml per day (recommends 6ml) not sure entirely what is in it other than trace and macro. Like TPN+ but cheaper. I made my own Nitrate and Phosphate mix which I add twice a week. A 10ml does of this will provide 25ppm Nitrate and 6ppm Phosphate. I use tap water and a 60% (approx.) water change per week. I know my tap water is fairly hard. Not sure what difference that would make anyway.

Are there any general rules for fine tuning a tank? I'm not really sure where to go next. Are there any obvious deficiencies to the more experienced? A little advice would be appreciated.
 
Only obvious thing missing from your list is food - are you over feeding? Perhaps HC is more sensitive to ammonia in the substrate than other plants as its so close to the ground.

Most people who get rocketing HC seem to have either sand or ADA soil. I've never seen a great HC carpet in molar clay like yours and have struggled myself. Doesn't seem to root properly as the substrate is perhaps too light, or maybe because it's inert, the roots don't grow down as much? Just speculating really...
 
I don't feed much at all. Every other day. I wondered about the substrate. Should I try upping my daily fert dose?
 
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