Filtration, flow, turnover and in-line CO2

[neofy705]

Hello all,

Last year I started my first proper high tech high energy planted tank. I have to thank the ukaps community for all the help and advices.

My tank was 200L Fluval Roma, chihiros wrgb 2 pro, Fluval 307, in line co2, in line heater TNC Complete and Lite, tropica soil. I understand that "I broke a few rules". I did not have a strong flow or a high turnover and I was dosing more on the lean side. Here's the tank at its peak. No algae. Good growth. Beginner's luck?

I have recently relocated and decided to upgrade to a nicer tank and start a new scape. The move was... let's say I'm not doing it again. 😅 and I had to rescape in like an hour. The only thing I did in advance was to buy and soak a "millenium" wood.
Scape aside I want to repeat the algae free "success" of my first tank.
My new tank is about 40 litres bigger (aquaone aquasys 230).

This (and the 3 hillstream loaches I added) made me wonder if I need a bigger filter/more turnover.

I was wondering why I never had any problems with low turnover in my previous scape. Was it because the in line CO2 is easier to reach the whole tank than say an in tank diffuser?
Was it because I wasn't doing EI? Was I just lucky? Or is lower turnover ok as long as the flow is good?

In a more pragmatic context should I upgrade to a fluval 407 or is the 307 still ok with the extra volume? Any recommendations for any other filter that uses 16/22 tubing?

Thank you all,
Neo

 

[Matt1994]

Hi Neofy705,

I am only onto my third aquascape/tank some others that are much more experienced may be able to offer advice with proof. This is just from my personal experience, but hope it is of some help.

My first tank the aquascaper 600 (600mm by 500mm by 360mm) I ran the Oase Biomaster 350 thermo. Flow was ok but definitely had some dead spots. My media consisted of Seachem matrix the top orange sponge and a bag of purigen.

On my second tank the water box 600mm by 500mm by 45mm i bought the Oase Biomaster 600 thermo and this was better but once the plants grew in there would still be slight dead spots or spots not seeming to do as well as
Other spots.

I used on the aquascaper steel lily pipes with skimmer and on the waterbox the aquario neo pipes. Both these pipes had more of a jet style outlet which would come out with a greater force but I felt this soon have less flow/ dead spots in some areas even on the smaller aquariums.

I have since upgraded to the Aquael Ultrascape 90 and have used the Biomaster 600 and Biomaster 350. I have however used glass lily
Pipes on both the filters . One filter is positioned at the front (600) flow hitting the co2 diffuser (in tank aquario large) and then
The filter at the back (350) seems to take the left over co2 around the rear of the tank.

I personally think I could have gotten away with 2x 600 filters and not had an issue. The glass loly
Pipes seem give a much more gentle flow. I am getting great surface agitation and co2 bubbles are all around the tank with barely any hitting the water surface. This tank is not even two weeks old yet so time will tell. But I feel already all the plants are getting an equal amount of co2 and have a lot better hopes for this scape.

Hope this personal
Experience is of some help.

Regards
Matt

(Picture is of my Aquael
Ultrascape 90)

 

[Matt1994]

Both stunning tanks your have created.

Thanks
Matt 😃

 

[ElleDee]

If it ain't broke don't fix it? I have wildly different flow situations in all my tanks and there's no correlation with how much algae they have. I think even flow and adequate gas exchange is much more important than meeting a particular threshold for flow or turnover. "Flow is king" is often said here, but it's not a universal rule and you aren't the first person to get by with less than advised.

Any time you change things you run the risk of throwing things out of whack and you might have to deal with algae; that's just how the game is played. You try something different and see what happens. In the end your plants and livestock will always let you know if a particular setup is adequate.

 

[neofy705]

Thank you both for your input. I did upgrade to a fluval 407, removed the dense sponges and flowrate seemed more than adequate.Unfortunately I think the reason my first tank was algae free was the sheer amount of plant mass. This one is not doing so well.

 

[si walker]

I only have a 35 ltr nano tank. It is packed with plants and so they get in the way of the flow.
I find the whole idea of Co2 being distributed throughout the tank pretty crazy.
I have just watched the latest ADA YTube video and theres no way that Co2 was being blasted around the tank. It was crammed full of plants, wood, rock and the diffuser, which was huge was only half way up the side of the tank which gave the gas a really quick route to the surface of the water.
Are we not over cooking all this a bit?
Every tank and set up is different by miles, thats the thing!
Great tanks!

 

[Scaperinc]

What was your tap water like before and now , i think its all about the water and co2, even co2 concentration depend on the water, i live in london-ish and tds from tap is 250 , not disastrous but not good. I had loads of alge when using intank diffuser specially bba , moved to inline and thats under control now .

2nd biggest challenge most hobiest face is getting nutrients and light right and biggest culprit of them all is getting iron right , i didn't know that iron is difficult for plants to absorb under different ph vales and you have to have certain cleator i.e DTPA EDDA for higher PH's for iron to be useful (thanks to this forum)

 

[neofy705]

What was your tap water like before and now , i think its all about the water and co2, even co2 concentration depend on the water, i live in london-ish and tds from tap is 250 , not disastrous but not good. I had loads of alge when using intank diffuser specially bba , moved to inline and thats under control now .

2nd biggest challenge most hobiest face is getting nutrients and light right and biggest culprit of them all is getting iron right , i didn't know that iron is difficult for plants to absorb under different ph vales and you have to have certain cleator i.e DTPA EDDA for higher PH's for iron to be useful (thanks to this forum)

My tap water is the same as before. Tds: 80-100. KH=O GH=3. Very soft water with virtually zero buffering capacity.

I am using an in tank diffuser thinking the co2 will dissolve in the water in the hose/pipe making it much more efficient. I genuinely think it's excess nutrients. Most of my plants are slow growing ones so the nutrients are too much.

 

[neofy705]

I only have a 35 ltr nano tank. It is packed with plants and so they get in the way of the flow.
I find the whole idea of Co2 being distributed throughout the tank pretty crazy.
I have just watched the latest ADA YTube video and theres no way that Co2 was being blasted around the tank. It was crammed full of plants, wood, rock and the diffuser, which was huge was only half way up the side of the tank which gave the gas a really quick route to the surface of the water.
Are we not over cooking all this a bit?
Every tank and set up is different by miles, thats the thing!
Great tanks!

I mean Green Aqua and ADA are lean dosing. I have been to Green Aqua. They don't have a lot of flow. BUT they seem to be doing a lot of maintenance and use highly nutritious soil. So maybe that's their trick. For us who rely on water column fertilisation flow might be more important.

I fully agree though. Each tank is different. EI and high flows are most likely to work for a wider range of tanks. Striking a balance without those is also possible.

 

[Scaperinc]

My tap water is the same as before. Tds: 80-100. KH=O GH=3. Very soft water with virtually zero buffering capacity.

I am using an in tank diffuser thinking the co2 will dissolve in the water in the hose/pipe making it much more efficient. I genuinely think it's excess nutrients. Most of my plants are slow growing ones so the nutrients are too much.

I would kill to have your tap water. Nutrients you can check or stop dosing for maybe 2 weeks do an extra WC. Clean the filter media if you haven't already and see what happens

 

[DeadFish]

Here's my experience with flow, CO2 dist., and algae: I love flow and I refuse to rest until every plant is moving in the current. I generally run 15x turnover. However, don't confuse flow with CO2 distribution and well distributed flow. You can get by with almost marginal flow provided it is well distributed. Or, you can do really well with marginal flow and more frequent water changes. With well distributed, low - moderate flow, ample CO2 distribution, there's little left to be desired. The issues really occur when there is poorly distributed flow and high organics. The best way to solve this issue is 2 inlets, 2 outlets. But, for the sake of equipment cost and aesthetics, that's not always practical.

On my 240l, I had a super jet running @ 70% (~2,000lph) and a DC closed loop running about the same, maybe a little more. Both had inline diffusers. Not a speck of algae and plant growth was fantastic. However, I generally run lights closer to the medium PAR range to limit growth and trimming time. Just having recently moved (feeling your pain - I will never do it again), I took off the DC pump closed loop and bumped the filter up to compensate. I do now do larger WCs - about 60% vs. 15%. No difference that can't be attributed to moving. Moving forward, we'll see how it turns out.

In short, I don't think there's a correct answer and just about any situation can be made to work given adjustments in other areas. I changed 100% of the water 3x within the first three weeks of moving. If you're seeing algae that wasn't present, it's likely just a balance thing - moving a tank is a huge undertaking for both you and the flora & fauna. It will take about a month to adjust IME. I would let it roll for a bit, increase the WC frequency or volume, and let it come back to balance. I would focus least on nutrient levels - they matter the least IME provided you've good substrate.

Edit: You did have a bunch more stems in the first tank and it can make a huge difference.

 

[neofy705]

Here's my experience with flow, CO2 dist., and algae: I love flow and I refuse to rest until every plant is moving in the current. I generally run 15x turnover. However, don't confuse flow with CO2 distribution and well distributed flow. You can get by with almost marginal flow provided it is well distributed. Or, you can do really well with marginal flow and more frequent water changes. With well distributed, low - moderate flow, ample CO2 distribution, there's little left to be desired. The issues really occur when there is poorly distributed flow and high organics. The best way to solve this issue is 2 inlets, 2 outlets. But, for the sake of equipment cost and aesthetics, that's not always practical.

On my 240l, I had a super jet running @ 70% (~2,000lph) and a DC closed loop running about the same, maybe a little more. Both had inline diffusers. Not a speck of algae and plant growth was fantastic. However, I generally run lights closer to the medium PAR range to limit growth and trimming time. Just having recently moved (feeling your pain - I will never do it again), I took off the DC pump closed loop and bumped the filter up to compensate. I do now do larger WCs - about 60% vs. 15%. No difference that can't be attributed to moving. Moving forward, we'll see how it turns out.

In short, I don't think there's a correct answer and just about any situation can be made to work given adjustments in other areas. I changed 100% of the water 3x within the first three weeks of moving. If you're seeing algae that wasn't present, it's likely just a balance thing - moving a tank is a huge undertaking for both you and the flora & fauna. It will take about a month to adjust IME. I would let it roll for a bit, increase the WC frequency or volume, and let it come back to balance. I would focus least on nutrient levels - they matter the least IME provided you've good substrate.

Edit: You did have a bunch more stems in the first tank and it can make a huge difference.

Thank you for your input. The tank was set up in October last year though so I would expect it to balance out by now. It must be the organics and the lower plant mass (of stems). I'm still struggling with algae 😕

 

[DeadFish]

Thank you for your input. The tank was set up in October last year though so I would expect it to balance out by now. It must be the organics and the lower plant mass (of stems). I'm still struggling with algae 😕

What’s your pH profile look like?