Electric Blue Rams Fighting

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

Hi.

After a quick bit of advice this evening if anyone is able to help.

Picked up two Electric Blue Rams this afternoon at Fishkeeper, Melville. Both really healthy looking fish. I suspect I’ve ended up with two males as they spent some time head butting each other and nipping. The larger of the two was clearly at advantage and after separating them with my net, the larger continued to pursue the other.

I don’t have a QT as yet (limited space) so have just turned all the lights and co2 off early. There’s sufficient hiding space in the tank for them to separate for the night and the tank should be more calm.

Any suggestions on what I should do next?

The option to return one and exchange for another is there as the staff were doing that for another customer at the time I bought mine. If I go down that route, how should I identify the sex most accurately? I’ve read a few articles and forum posts and there’s so much conflicting information! The chap who served me did try to identify a male and a female but they all looked the same to me and probably isn’t that easy.

The other option is to wait a little longer and see what happens but without a refugium or QT I’m reluctant to risk harm to the fish.

Last time I kept a community tank was 2009 and Rams are a new one to me so I’m a bit out of practice. Other than the Rams I have a shoal of Green Neon Tetra and multiple shrimp. Nothing that would bother the Rams.

 

[_Maq_]

Whenever there's a difficulty in telling the sex, the only way is to take four or more juveniles and do the selection later on.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

 

[Bradders]

I am not an expert, but does this help at all?

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

I am not an expert, but does this help at all?


View attachment 214360

Thanks. I found that online but I’m still not sure. I’ll observe them this afternoon and see what happens between them.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

They seem to have made friends. No idea if they’re a pair or not but they aren’t fighting and swim together so no longer worried. 👍🏻

Thanks.

 

[Bradders]

That is good news. So it sounded like they were just establishing their pecking order, and all has calmed down.

No closer to understanding whether male or female, then?!

 

[John q]

Hiya @simon_the_plant_nerd can't answer the original question re: sexing:
EBR's are difficult to sex with any accuracy, especially when young.
If it helps I've seen Female rams hound Female rams, males hound females, and visa versa and males hound males.
Whilst they are not the most aggressive of the Cichlid family, they are cichilids non the less and can be fiesty at times, even towards the opposite sex, in this instance you hopefully end up with a dominant and submissive pairing and peaceful times should follow.

Last bit of advice; having a guaranteed male/female in the tank doesn't guarantee they will pair up and become a couple 😉

 

[Bradders]

Last bit of advice; having a guaranteed male/female in the tank doesn't guarantee they will pair up and become a couple 😉

Not even with a bit of Lionel Richie?

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

That is good news. So it sounded like they were just establishing their pecking order, and all has calmed down.

No closer to understanding whether male or female, then?!

Not a clue. 😄 For now I’m just pleased they’re not showing any aggression. They’re beautiful wee fish and seem to be happy in amongst my taller plants. If they do end up being a male/female pair then I’ll consider it a bonus.

 

[MichaelJ]

Last bit of advice; having a guaranteed male/female in the tank doesn't guarantee they will pair up and become a couple 😉

What John says... I've had Rams on and off for decades (currently I don't)... the sexing is not too hard when dealing with adults, but almost impossible with juveniles although the females tends to be more stubby and smaller even as juveniles. I've had paired up Rams chasing each other around after a couple of weeks to the point where I had to separate them... the courting game among Rams can be quite volatile.. sort of like Richard Burton & Elizabeth Taylor back in the day

Cheers,
Michael

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

Unfortunately we lost one of the Rams today. While we haven’t seen any more fighting between them, both had a couple of small bruises which my LFS said are typical of fighting behaviour.

The tank had a bacteria bloom earlier in the week (I believe the result of algae die off but realistically, not sure) and multiple snails died which contributed to a small ammonia spike. No other fish casualties so I think this is a combination of the ram being weakened and the ammonia spike.

Tank will be left to stabilise again while the plants grow out and I add more hiding places and barriers before I consider adding another fish.

 

[Bradders]

Unfortunately we lost one of the Rams today. While we haven’t seen any more fighting between them, both had a couple of small bruises which my LFS said are typical of fighting behaviour.

Sorry to hear that - not great news at all. 🙁

The tank had a bacteria bloom earlier in the week (I believe the result of algae die off but realistically, not sure) and multiple snails died which contributed to a small ammonia spike. No other fish casualties so I think this is a combination of the ram being weakened and the ammonia spike.

I was surprised about the bacteria bloom - do you think you have enough quality media in your filter?

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

Sorry to hear that - not great news at all. 🙁

I was surprised about the bacteria bloom - do you think you have enough quality media in your filter?

I think I’m at fault for the bacteria bloom to be honest. The tank is only small but has an oversized canister filter which I originally seeded with media from my pond filter and some bottled bacteria for good measure.

I started dosing a soluble fertiliser after adding more plants to the front of my tank which is just sand and doesn’t have any aqua soil. At the same time I also culled some of my floating plants. This turned out to be a mistake as I had a big algae growth shortly after with long strand growing on the plants.

Last week I did some maintenance at water change time, moved some plants around, added more floaters, pulled some algae off and generally just faffed with the tank. I cut out the fertiliser completely which was probably also a mistake. The remaining algae died quickly but on Monday morning we had the distinctive white cloud bacteria bloom.

I immediately did a 50% water change but the smaller snails were already dead and one cherry shrimp. I changed a further 30% yesterday as the water still appeared slightly cloudy but no more deaths.

Came home to the ram dead today and one more snail. Another 50% water change and a trip to the LFS for a bottle of Prime. I’ve increased surface agitation too.

While I’m not new to aquariums (former fishless reef keeper), I am putting this down to my inexperience with planted tanks and a tank which hasn’t achieved balance yet.

I suspect some patience and caution on my part may be the best lesson from this.

 

[Bradders]

I am putting this down to my inexperience with planted tanks and a tank which hasn’t achieved balance yet.

How old is the tank then?

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

Coming up to 12 weeks.

 

[Bradders]

Coming up to 12 weeks.

Ah, OK. Still a bit surprised that moving a few plants, water change and fert reduction caused the bloom. (I am sadly doing this tinkering all the time!) With an over filtered aquarium I would have expected the filter to deal with it, and keep that out of the water column.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

No other fish casualties so I think this is a combination of the ram being weakened and the ammonia spike.

Unfortunately Rams are poor, unhealthy things now. It is a shame because they are <"one of my favourite fish">.

Last week I did some maintenance at water change time, moved some plants around, added more floaters, pulled some algae off and generally just faffed with the tank. I cut out the fertiliser completely which was probably also a mistake. The remaining algae died quickly but on Monday morning we had the distinctive white cloud bacteria bloom.

I immediately did a 50% water change but the smaller snails were already dead and one cherry shrimp. I changed a further 30% yesterday as the water still appeared slightly cloudy but no more deaths.

That doesn't sound great. I think you've done all you can at the moment.

Coming up to 12 weeks.

With an over filtered aquarium I would have expected the filter to deal with it,........

do you think you have enough quality media in your filter?

It depends a little bit on <"what is in the filter">, you are actually much more likely to have too much / <"the wrong sort of filter media"> in the filter, rather <"than too little">.

If the filter is stuffed full of filter floss, and has a thick biofilm layer, it will definitely have quite a severe effect on dissolved oxygen levels, mainly because the filter won't be processing ammonia efficiently and that ammonia will be stripping oxygen from the water, because nitrification is an <"oxygen intensive process">.

Oxygen depletion is is very unlikely with a sponge filter, it isn't a sealed body (it has access to the tank water) and fresh air is continually being pumped through it.

cheers Darrel

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

Ah, OK. Still a bit surprised that moving a few plants, water change and fert reduction caused the bloom. (I am sadly doing this tinkering all the time!) With an over filtered aquarium I would have expected the filter to deal with it, and keep that out of the water column.

I was surprised too. I wondered if I stocked it too quickly and the bacteria just wasn’t developed enough yet to handle something like that. I wonder is I measured out the fertilisers wrong or something. Haven’t had time to check it all yet but at the weekend a full inquiry (at great expense, as is the British way!) will be carried out.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

Hi all,

Unfortunately Rams are poor, unhealthy things now. It is a shame because they are <"one of my favourite fish">.

That doesn't sound great. I think you've done all you can at the moment.


It depends a little bit on <"what is in the filter">, you are actually much more likely to have too much / <"the wrong sort of filter media"> in the filter, rather <"than too little">.


cheers Darrel

Interesting thoughts. I’ve got ceramic noodles in the filter mainly. It’s a Fluval which has course and fine sponges on the intake, two baskets of noodles, a further sponge then a couple of think layers of floss.

My reef had a sump with live rock and a skimmer through a fine mesh bag so a very different set up to what I have now.

Is there perhaps a better way I could set up the filter?