Dying fish

[UseHerName]

Hi,

I hope you could help me.

about a month ago I bought a piece of driftwood for my tank. I stabilized it with a large rock for about three weeks and when it showed no signs of sinking and kept bouncing up whenever I removed the rock, I have decided to boil it in water for a few hours. After that the driftwood sank. In the last week I had 5-6 casualties, different species, none of which were new to the tank, I had them for about a year now.

The water tested normally, apart from higher Nitrates, nothing too scarry. I have changed 50% of the water in the tank and I am treating it also with nitrate removal.
I assume this has something to do with the wood? but not sure what I can do (apart from removing it completely?)

Many thanks,
Hadar

 

[PARAGUAY]

Any doubts just remove, pictures of the set up and fish and will be helpful but for now some water changes to remove any possible water quality issues

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'm sorry to hear about your fish losses, however long you keep fish for <"it never gets any easier"> when this happens.

This is going to sound a bit strange, but do you have an alternative source of water for water changes? Making the assumption that you are using tap water? I would be worried about <"emergency chloramine"> or <"biocide dosing">.

The water tested normally, apart from higher Nitrates, nothing too scarry. I have changed 50% of the water in the tank and I am treating it also with nitrate removal.

It isn't the nitrate (NO3-). We don't know exact toxicity values for most tropical fish, but we have values <"for the Zebra Danio (Danio rerio)">, because it is a <"laboratory model organism">.

........The Zebra(fish) Danio (Danio rerio) paper use NaNO2 and NaNO3 as its source of NO2-/NO3- ions. If you convert the 606 mg/L (ppm) NaNO3 to ppm NO3- you get 442 ppm NO3- (RMM 85 and 62/85 ~ 73% NO3), so we are still talking pretty elevated levels of NO3-.

The ideas about nitrate (NO3-) and toxicity are because NO3- can be the <"smoking gun"> of previously raised levels of ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2-), rather than it being extremely toxic itself.

cheers Darrel

 

[UseHerName]

Any doubts just remove, pictures of the set up and fish and will be helpful but for now some water changes to remove any possible water quality issues

I think I kinda know this but was hoping for a solution, it took so long to get it soaked and the design around it 🙁
Any suggestions of what to do with it after removing it? Any treatment that may help to get it back in there?
Many thanks

Hi all,
I'm sorry to hear about your fish losses, however long you keep fish for <"it never gets any easier"> when this happens.

This is going to sound a bit strange, but do you have an alternative source of water for water changes? Making the assumption that you are using tap water? I would be worried about <"emergency chloramine"> or <"biocide dosing">.

It isn't the nitrate (NO3-). We don't know exact toxicity values for most tropical fish, but we have values <"for the Zebra Danio (Danio rerio)">, because it is a <"laboratory model organism">.

The ideas about nitrate (NO3-) and toxicity are because NO3- can be the <"smoking gun"> of previously raised levels of ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2-), rather than it being extremely toxic itself.

cheers Darrel

thank you for that!
Funny you should mention the water. We recently had installed a water softener that goes on the mains water output. I guess it means the water might be a bit saltier than usual. However; because of that, I mix the water, meaning: we have one tap with normal water and I mix the water from the tap with the softener and the normal tap. You think it might be that rather than the wood?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

We recently had installed a water softener that goes on the mains water output. I guess it means the water might be a bit saltier than usual. However; because of that, I mix the water, meaning: we have one tap with normal water and I mix the water from the tap with the softener and the normal tap. You think it might be that rather than the wood?

Unfortunately almost certainly the water softener, you must just use the "drinking water" tap. If you need to warm it up, you'll have to leave it to stand with a heater etc.

Water that has been through an ion exchange water softener isn't suitable for tanks, because it has <"swapped every calcium (Ca++) ion"> for two sodium (Na+) ions and is now full of sodium (bi)carbonate (Na2(H)CO3). <"Household water softener water usability">.

If you have hard tap water (and I'll guess you do), you've added a huge amount of sodium.

Our tap water is about 120 mg / L Ca++ (<"17dGH">), so once it has been through the softener it will be about 240 mg / L Na+ and the conductivity will have gone up as well (Na+ ions conduct electricity less well than Ca++ ions, but you now have twice as many).

cheers Darrel

 

[UseHerName]

Hi all,

Unfortunately almost certainly the water softener, you must just use the "drinking water" tap. If you need to warm it up, you'll have to leave it to stand with a heater etc.

Water that has been through an ion exchange water softener isn't suitable for tanks, because it has <"swapped every calcium (Ca++) ion"> for two sodium (Na+) ions and is now full of sodium (bi)carbonate (Na2(H)CO3). <"Household water softener water usability">.

If you have hard tap water (and I'll guess you do), you've added a huge amount of sodium.

Our tap water is about 120 mg / L Ca++ (<"17dGH">), so once it has been through the softener it will be about 240 mg / L Na+ and the conductivity will have gone up as well (Na+ ions conduct electricity less well than Ca++ ions, but you now have twice as many).

cheers Darrel

Thank you so much!
We’ve left one ‘normal’ tap, so I’ll use it instead. I’ll do another large water change. The thing is, now with the previous water change I have to be careful also not eliminate everything that has been circulating already.
So probably no need to remove the wood in this case.

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi all,

Unfortunately almost certainly the water softener, you must just use the "drinking water" tap. If you need to warm it up, you'll have to leave it to stand with a heater etc.

Funny you should mention the water. We recently had installed a water softener that goes on the mains water output. I guess it means the water might be a bit saltier than usual. However; because of that, I mix the water, meaning: we have one tap with normal water and I mix the water from the tap with the softener and the normal tap. You think it might be that rather than the wood?

Hi @UseHerName, Sorry about your loss of fish. Depending on how high your sodium load would be after mixing with the non-softened "drinking water" I think its very likely the high sodium content in your water could be the culprit just as Darrel points out. I believe back in the day when we used Sodium Chloride in our household water softener the water contained around 260 ppm. of Na. We do see water reports around here from people with elevated Sodium levels in their tap water and fish that seemingly are doing well. I do not know what the problematic limit might be. Up to at least 10 ppm seems fairly common in some Amazon water ways.

Would it be possible to use Potassium Chloride (KCl) instead of Sodium Chloride (NaCl) in your water softener? It's more expensive and wont last as long as Sodium chloride but its better. Similar to using Sodium Chloride, the water will come out with a GH near zero as all the Ca and Mg are stripped - it will retain the CO3 (KH) however. And of course, depending on how hard your city water is to begin with you will get a lot of Potassium - which is less likely to cause problems especially after you mix in straight city water to remineralize the softened water that will lower the potassium load.

Yet another suggestion (ideal) would be to use remineralized RO water or rain water or just mixed with the straight non-softened drinking water.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Jaxpot]

Hi there UseHerName - I have a water softener too, and used to endlessly be filling buckets and kettle with water from the separate, slower hard water tap, and mixing to get the right temperature. A slow process.

On a plumbing note, the water softener is normally fitted so that it comes off the main water 'in', then bypasses into the softener and back into the main water pipe. I can switch off the by-pass through a system of x3 T-switches meaning the inlet/outlet for the softener are both closed off and the mains pipe re-opened to travel straight through. This means faster flow of hard water through the main tap. As I have a combi boiler, it means I can run non-softened, warm water through the main kitchen tap. It has made life much easier. Obviously this solution only works with a combi boiler that heats water at source (i.e. no water from a hot-water tank already filled with softened water). But thought I'd mention it as maybe you do indeed have a combi!

Jackie

 

[UseHerName]

Hi @UseHerName, Sorry about your loss of fish. Depending on how high your sodium load would be after mixing with the non-softened "drinking water" I think its very likely the high sodium content in your water could be the culprit just as Darrel points out. I believe back in the day when we used Sodium Chloride in our household water softener the water contained around 260 ppm. of Na. We do see water reports around here from people with elevated Sodium levels in their tap water and fish that seemingly are doing well. I do not know what the problematic limit might be. Up to at least 10 ppm seems fairly common in some Amazon water ways.

Would it be possible to use Potassium Chloride (KCl) instead of Sodium Chloride (NaCl) in your water softener? It's more expensive and wont last as long as Sodium chloride but its better. Similar to using Sodium Chloride, the water will come out with a GH near zero as all the Ca and Mg are stripped - it will retain the CO3 (KH) however. And of course, depending on how hard your city water is to begin with you will get a lot of Potassium - which is less likely to cause problems especially after you mix in straight city water to remineralize the softened water that will lower the potassium load.

Yet another suggestion (ideal) would be to use remineralized RO water or rain water or just mixed with the straight non-softened drinking water.

Cheers,
Michael

Hello Michael,

Thank you for your response! The water softener is on the main pipe for the house. we were told, at in installation, that the water tap in the utility room will remain as is - i.e - with hard normal water. so I have made the last few exchanges with this one. Fish gradually kept dying on me. So i've called the company, they've sent a test-kit, and the water tested soft!!! they connected this tap to the system too! So today, Ive shut down the entire thing, tested to make sure that the water are hard normal water and then did my water change. Unfortunately, I did something like 40% change (I think I was a bit freaked out to find out that I was using soft water all along) and I have lost another 3 fish sine then🙁 I think the water change was too rapid and not gradual enough, but i'm not sure. some survived (mainly fry, which I find weird, however, maybe they are more adaptable to such changes?). I am still debating if it can be the drift wood, but I don't see why it'll do that, plus, I have done some much water change since, that I really doubt it could be the reason. It's all very upsetting at the moment. I am going to contact the water company tomorrow to ask then to come and 'fix' the tap in the utility room so that it'll have hard water and hopefully it'll make things easier. With regards to using Kcl, it's a company product, not something that I am doing. Any other comments/ suggestions will be very welcome.

 

[UseHerName]

Hi there UseHerName - I have a water softener too, and used to endlessly be filling buckets and kettle with water from the separate, slower hard water tap, and mixing to get the right temperature. A slow process.

On a plumbing note, the water softener is normally fitted so that it comes off the main water 'in', then bypasses into the softener and back into the main water pipe. I can switch off the by-pass through a system of x3 T-switches meaning the inlet/outlet for the softener are both closed off and the mains pipe re-opened to travel straight through. This means faster flow of hard water through the main tap. As I have a combi boiler, it means I can run non-softened, warm water through the main kitchen tap. It has made life much easier. Obviously this solution only works with a combi boiler that heats water at source (i.e. no water from a hot-water tank already filled with softened water). But thought I'd mention it as maybe you do indeed have a combi!

Jackie

Hello Jackie,
Thank you for your comment.
Upon installation, the company said they will leave the tap in the utility room with normal hard water, but I found only today that they haven't, ive tested the water with a kit that they've sent. I then got stressed about it and did a ~40% water change in one go and lost yet another 3 fish. I am now wondering if that water change was too sudden and if that's the reason. I bought a new drift wood at the begining of February, soaked it and boiled it, the water seems fine, so I don't think that's the reason, i'm leaning more towards the salinated water... any comments or suggestions will be welcome.

 

[Jaxpot]

So sorry to hear of your woes. I've attached a diagram of my softener switches so you can see what you (should likely have somewhere in your house near the softener - and how the switches operate should you need to switch between hard/softened water elsewhere in your house - but hopefully the company that installed your softener will have sorted your laundry room tap out anyway. Just means a lot of 'kettle boiling' time for you to get the right temperature mix for your aquarium water from this tap. I am also presuming you add water conditioner to the water you put into the tank (I know, it's obvious and I know you do it but thought it worth mentioning.)

I imagine as you do your weekly water changes, things will start to settle as the water in the tank gets harder - hopefully things are already settling down. But when it comes to softened water - we might like it for our skin and losing the limescale residue, but it's bad, bad, bad for fish, indoor AND outdoor plants and... I'm guessing based on that... the bacteria in your filter may be none too keen either. The driftwood you said you soaked and boiled in it for ages so perhaps that was also done in softened water so was leaching it back into the aquarium a little . Not sure what fish you have but if you have plecos, perhaps that wasn't helping. [FYI I have occasionally soaked my driftwood back in softened water with bleach for half-an-hour or so whilst cleaning and then rinse it all - and it seems to have no effect on my fish , but then again it's not soaked into it and I don't have bogwood-eating plecos!].

How are your fish now? Hopefully the hard-water changes are helping and the worst is over.
Jackie

 

[UseHerName]

So sorry to hear of your woes. I've attached a diagram of my softener switches so you can see what you (should likely have somewhere in your house near the softener - and how the switches operate should you need to switch between hard/softened water elsewhere in your house - but hopefully the company that installed your softener will have sorted your laundry room tap out anyway. Just means a lot of 'kettle boiling' time for you to get the right temperature mix for your aquarium water from this tap. I am also presuming you add water conditioner to the water you put into the tank (I know, it's obvious and I know you do it but thought it worth mentioning.)

I imagine as you do your weekly water changes, things will start to settle as the water in the tank gets harder - hopefully things are already settling down. But when it comes to softened water - we might like it for our skin and losing the limescale residue, but it's bad, bad, bad for fish, indoor AND outdoor plants and... I'm guessing based on that... the bacteria in your filter may be none too keen either. The driftwood you said you soaked and boiled in it for ages so perhaps that was also done in softened water so was leaching it back into the aquarium a little . Not sure what fish you have but if you have plecos, perhaps that wasn't helping. [FYI I have occasionally soaked my driftwood back in softened water with bleach for half-an-hour or so whilst cleaning and then rinse it all - and it seems to have no effect on my fish , but then again it's not soaked into it and I don't have bogwood-eating plecos!].

How are your fish now? Hopefully the hard-water changes are helping and the worst is over.
Jackie

Hello Jackie,
Thank you for that!
yes, that's what I did eventually, turned it off fro the mains and did my water change. we were away after that for a week, but when we came back there were no casualties! it's been 2 weeks now, and today Ive restocked the tank. The wood is out too, I cant really take any risk. i've replaced it with some rocks I brought back from Lanzarote, volcanic (see image below). so I rella yhope that things will be fine now. As you said, just extra kettle time. I never had problems before, the odd casualty, but nothing like that. I bought some guppies and neon tetras, nothing fancy, so I hope they'll be fine.
Thank you for all the great tips!

 

[Jaxpot]

That is really good news and the rocks (in fact the whole tank) look great!