dosing a low tech tank on a 'Thames Water' supply with an allinone solution

[a1Matt]

Where was this? - only able to find it already dissolved in a liquid.

Is it normal for the mix to give the water a bit of a blurry 'haze' when adding it or is this reacting?
There are no white dots appearing.

Ebay. The seller was 'shrimptown'.

A haze is normal for me. I get the same when adding dry salts. It goes after a few seconds.

 

[Andrew Butler]

you can get it from PlantedBox for €5

Thanks for that, I can't find anywhere in the UK.

Ebay. The seller was 'shrimptown'.

Thanks @a1Matt I found them but they've had no feedback in the last month or any current listings, will try to make contact and see if they are still trading.

The haze is an optical effect in the differences of the refractive index of the water and the brine you are adding, which happens at the interface where the two meet, it's a halocline or chemicline depending on how you want to perceive the terminology, it quickly dissipates

A haze is normal for me. I get the same when adding dry salts. It goes after a few seconds.

Thanks for that; I've always used a doser and just switched to pouring it in while I give things a clean etc so was unsure if this was normal.
It disappears fine, just concerned it might have been things reacting and rendering them useless.

 

[oscarlloydjohn]

This was an interesting read, has anyone tried increasing Mg in their water change water (as if it were a GH booster) instead of dosing it like a fert? I'm doing this as I was concerned that Mg accumulation could affect my shrimp.

 

[Parablennius]

Mornin' all
Quick heads up for Shrimptown Lushmax ferts. Andrew's just relisted his ferts. I just ordered a fresh pack this morning.
HTH
Steve

 

[a1Matt]

This was an interesting read, has anyone tried increasing Mg in their water change water (as if it were a GH booster) instead of dosing it like a fert? I'm doing this as I was concerned that Mg accumulation could affect my shrimp.

That works just as well. I did it for years. It was my preferred method when I was adhering to a regular water change schedule.

I know you didn't ask about traces or iron, but I'll add the info anyway for completeness...

On the other hand I found that once the plants hit a certain density and/or growth rate, then traces/iron benefit from daily dosing.

My understanding is this is not due to the anount of iron in the water, but it's availability.

The science behind it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160221092934/http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ferrous-ferric
and elegantly applied to our planted environments by Darrel:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-tech-riverbank.29991/

 

[Andrew Butler]

Mornin' all
Quick heads up for Shrimptown Lushmax ferts. Andrew's just relisted his ferts. I just ordered a fresh pack this morning.
HTH
Steve

In the space of 5 minutes last night I had an email back from shrimptown on ebay and also someone messaged me saying they had some! 🙄
Shrimptown had been moving house and as you say just started relisting last night.

 

[Something Fishy]

Looking at mixing a comprehensive all in one for my tanks too - what you guys think about using standard micro and macro together but also add some chelated iron to it? Or should that be dosed separately. Seeing people reporting good results with chelated iron on top but wasn’t sure if it could be mixed into the all in one or if that’s overkill?


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[a1Matt]

Allinone

The intention behind this thread is to encourage people with low tech tanks and hard water to try an allinone which includes mg and DTPA chelated iron.

 

[Something Fishy]

Yeah that makes sense Matt, was just odd that most recipes miss out chelated iron when using trace elements and I wondered if anyone had logic for that.

When you say low tech and hard water - what about those running higher tech setups and using softer water - surely it would suit them too right?


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[a1Matt]

It's not mentioned as most trace elements will include chelated iron already.

The chelator used is usually EDTA, whereas I am suggesting adding iron chelated with DTPA.

For lower ph water (this includes high tech tanks) the change in chelator is not as relevant, as EDTA is more effective at lower ph.

 

[ian_m]

Looking at mixing a comprehensive all in one for my tanks too - what you guys think about using standard micro and macro together but also add some chelated iron to it? Or should that be dosed separately.

You must dose separately on different days as as the iron chelate in the micro will react with the macro phosphate and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and be no longer available to plants.

 

[Andrew Butler]

just odd that most recipes miss out chelated iron when using trace elements

unsure where you get your trace mix from but both APF and TNC chelated trace elements contain Iron (Fe) and are infact from the same wholesaler 😉
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/chelated-trace.html
https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-trace-at/

It's me who has really hijacked @a1Matt thread asking about using an all in one in a high tech situation as if it was possible I didn't see the need for using 2 separate mixes.
I'm sure someone will correct a few things here as I don't fully understand it all but the whole thing about the iron is it reacting with Potassium phosphate and that's the whole reason why EI is dosed separately in a nutshell.
By lowering the PH of the solution to below PH6 the iron should not react which is where the ascorbic acid comes in, the potassium sorbate is there as a preventative against mould etc.
The iron that comes in the trace mixes above is EDTA and different types of chelated iron exist that are stronger such as DTPA which I'm told is the one to go for.

 

[Andrew Butler]

You must dose separately on different days as as the iron chelate in the micro will react with the macro phosphate and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and be no longer available to plants.

do you not agree that if you stabilise the mix (lower PH) then it is okay to use an all in one?
does the reaction you mention kill just the iron or both iron and phosphate?
If this is the case and you are to make or source your own traces but only use DTPA Fe would this be okay if you kept the PH of the mix down?

 

[Something Fishy]

You must dose separately on different days as as the iron chelate in the micro will react with the macro phosphate and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and be no longer available to plants.

Even when using ascorbic and E202?


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[Something Fishy]

unsure where you get your trace mix from but both APF and TNC chelated trace elements contain Iron (Fe) and are infact from the same wholesaler 😉
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/chelated-trace.html
https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-trace-at/

It's me who has really hijacked @a1Matt thread asking about using an all in one in a high tech situation as if it was possible I didn't see the need for using 2 separate mixes.
I'm sure someone will correct a few things here as I don't fully understand it all but the whole thing about the iron is it reacting with Potassium phosphate and that's the whole reason why EI is dosed separately in a nutshell.
By lowering the PH of the solution to below PH6 the iron should not react which is where the ascorbic acid comes in, the potassium sorbate is there as a preventative against mould etc.
The iron that comes in the trace mixes above is EDTA and different types of chelated iron exist that are stronger such as DTPA which I'm told is the one to go for.

I see thanks for explaining mate. I guess I was unsure which chelated method the iron alone was using and thought I’d ask if combing that with micro would be possible if they are using different methods of chelate. Especially if micro uses different methods and already has iron on the other method in there. Also I believed that the iron in the micro already was not as high as when adding extra for better results?

I noticed that plant foods sold it separately too and many people were saying they used it on top and it really helped so I thought maybe it could be just an all in one.


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[a1Matt]

You must dose separately on different days as as the iron chelate in the micro will react with the macro phosphate and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and be no longer available to plants.

If anyone is interested in my take on this, I responded to @ian_m earlier in the thread.

 

[a1Matt]

I see thanks for explaining mate. I guess I was unsure which chelated method the iron alone was using and thought I’d ask if combing that with micro would be possible if they are using different methods of chelate. Especially if micro uses different methods and already has iron on the other method in there. Also I believed that the iron in the micro already was not as high as when adding extra for better results?

I noticed that plant foods sold it separately too and many people were saying they used it on top and it really helped so I thought maybe it could be just an all in one.


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It's fine to mix iron with different chelators.
In fact some hobbyists specifically advocate doing so.

This is regardless of dosing method, so don't feel tied down to allinone for that reason.

 

[Aqua sobriquet]

Have a look at the pictures of some plant fertilisers I mixed up years ago. Both have trace in them but whilst one has stayed clear the other showed precipitation.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/why-macro-and-micro.57619/#post-561831