Does this look like ich?

[Dr. White]

Hi all.

Upsetting turn of events. My school of cardinals and three ottos were doing so well, and I decided to add 4 more cardinals and 3 more ottos. I went against all good advice - including that which I would have given - and didn't thoroughly examine the fish shops tanks before asking for them. I first noticed the new cardinals having laboured respiration when they went in. Not a big concern then, they were new. But they remained washed out and behaving abnormally for about three days before I noticed white spots on a couple of them. Only about 3 or 4 spots each. I immediately purchased some eSHa Exit and began the first dose straight away. It recommends a large dose, then two half doses on subsequent days. I did that and the problem was only got worse, with it spreading to the original cardinals and the ottos. The meds suggest for stubborn cases, keep dosing for another 3 days. I have done that now, and have not seen any improvement. Today I sadly lost two of my original cardinals, neither of whom actually had any white spots visible on their bodies. I attach a photo of the one that died today.

I am now wondering if it really was ich, or perhaps something like epistylus?

 

[Dr. White]

I had two more cardinals die overnight, sadly. One of whom was one of the newer larger fish that I know for sure was covered in the ich/episytlus. I was hoping to get their bodies under a microscope to examine the infection. However, both bodies were apparently clear of it. So I can only assume that whatever was on their skin dropped off following their demise. I wonder if this might help ID the disease?

Another of the large new cardinals looks to be on the way out, having difficulty swimming. I am considering getting it out an euthanising it, then hopefully should be able to get a photo of the disease. I don't want to kill any of them, but I think it is close to death anyway, and getting a photo of the parasites/disease in place may be for the best for those that remain.

 

[Bradders]

Another of the large new cardinals looks to be on the way out, having difficulty swimming. I am considering getting it out an euthanising it, then hopefully should be able to get a photo of the disease. I don't want to kill any of them, but I think it is close to death anyway, and getting a photo of the parasites/disease in place may be for the best for those that remain.

As sad as it is, it might serve two purposes: 1) put the fish out of its misery and 2) understand what might be going on if you have the equipment and expertise to investigate further.

Sorry to hear about further fatalities.

 

[Dr. White]

As sad as it is, it might serve two purposes: 1) put the fish out of its misery and 2) understand what might be going on if you have the equipment and expertise to investigate further.

Sorry to hear about further fatalities.

Yes, I made my mind up to do it straight after I wrote the post. I netting it out - which was very easy, then quickly laid it out and used the 20X microscope attachment on my phone. But I could see straight away before magnification that it too has nothing on its skin. When I put in under the microscope attachment it confirmed it. Very strange. Perhaps the disease is only visible to us underwater? I know some types of substance are clear out of what but become opaque in water.

 

[Bradders]

Can you put it in some shallow clean water but still be able to use the microscope? (Sounds silly, but just checking.....)

 

[Dr. White]

Can you put it in some shallow clean water but still be able to use the microscope? (Sounds silly, but just checking.....)

That's worth trying, thank you. I've already flushed the ones that died last night/this morning, but when the next one goes (and sadly I am expecting such) I'll give that a go. I might not be able to use the microscope as the lens needs to be virtually on top for it to focus, but I'll give it a go and I'll at least be able to see if the disease is visible in water on a dead body.

 

[Dr. White]

Day 3 of the combined eSHa EXIT and 2000 and I have lost 10 out of 16 of the cardinals and 1 of 6 ottos. The remaining cardinals still look very unwell and I'd not be surprised if they all go soon. Some of the ottos are eating now, but still look poorly. I have some hopes that some will pull through.

I think it is probably safe to say it wasn't ich.

It is just horrible. I am just glad that I am at home so I can promptly remove the dead.

 

[X3NiTH]

treat with a product containing Malachite Green

This is always my suggestion for treating this. Use a Malachite Green and Formaldehyde formulation, Protozin from Waterlife has both and also includes Copper Sulphate (not invert friendly), or alternatively Anti Whitespot and Fungus treatment from Maidenhead Aquatics which is Malachite Green and Formaldehyde only and is invert safe.

 

[John q]

I think it is probably safe to say it wasn't ich.

We should remember Ich is generally a secondary infection, the same can be said for epistylus. Can't give you a cure, other than what I've already said.

 

[fredi]

Although in my experience ich or white spot can be kicked off about by low temperatures, especially on new aquaria

 

[Dr. White]

Although in my experience ich or white spot can be kicked off about by low temperatures, especially on new aquaria

Indeed, and I suspect the period of 17 degree temps that I recently had didn't help one bit. Today I bit the bullet and ordered a new filter (Oase Biomaster thermo 250) to replace the Oase Filtosmart 100 that I am currently using. It was the latter losing flow that caused the temp to drop. And tbh, I am sick of all the problems my current filter has been giving me. I needed to order a new cabinet as well, as my current one wouldn't hold a bigger filter.

 

[Bradders]

Today I bit the bullet and ordered a new filter (Oase Biomaster thermo 250) to replace the Oase Filtosmart 100 that I am currently using. It was the latter losing flow that caused the temp to drop. And tbh, I am sick of all the problems my current filter has been giving me. I needed to order a new cabinet as well, as my current one wouldn't hold a bigger filter.

I am sorry to hear this is progressing in the wrong direction @Dr. White. Unpleasant.

If you need help or advice with the Oase, then please give me a shout. I have had two of these now, so I know the good, the bad and the ugly. Happy to help if required.

 

[fredi]

Indeed, and I suspect the period of 17 degree temps that I recently had didn't help one bit. Today I bit the bullet and ordered a new filter (Oase Biomaster thermo 250) to replace the Oase Filtosmart 100 that I am currently using. It was the latter losing flow that caused the temp to drop. And tbh, I am sick of all the problems my current filter has been giving me. I needed to order a new cabinet as well, as my current one wouldn't hold a bigger filter.

That cannot hurt
From a fish keeping point of view a larger filter cannot hurt

 

[Dr. White]

I'm now down to one solitary cardinal and three ottos. Have to say I feel very sorry for the cardinal and have been considering euthanising it as it can't be fun on its own and it is showing signs of disease. Two of the ottos don't have any outward sign of disease so I hope these two will survive.

I have ordered a new filter as mentioned above, which will improve WQ and temperature stability. I am just now wondering how long to leave it before attempting to restock? The biomedia will be transferred to the new filter, and the amano and CRS (and hopefully the ottos) will keep the nitrifiying bacteria ticking over in the new filter. I am off on holiday for 10 days at the beginning of Feb, so certainly won't restock before then. A UV steriliser might be an idea to clear up the pathogens (along with many water changes). Thing is, I've already spent a lot of money on the tank over the last few days, and the UV would likely be fairly redundant later once the tank is restocked and hopefully disease free.

 

[Bradders]

I'm now down to one solitary cardinal and three ottos. Have to say I feel very sorry for the cardinal and have been considering euthanising it as it can't be fun on its own and it is showing signs of disease. Two of the ottos don't have any outward sign of disease so I hope these two will survive.

I have ordered a new filter as mentioned above, which will improve WQ and temperature stability. I am just now wondering how long to leave it before attempting to restock? The biomedia will be transferred to the new filter, and the amano and CRS (and hopefully the ottos) will keep the nitrifiying bacteria ticking over in the new filter. I am off on holiday for 10 days at the beginning of Feb, so certainly won't restock before then. A UV steriliser might be an idea to clear up the pathogens (along with many water changes). Thing is, I've already spent a lot of money on the tank over the last few days, and the UV would likely be fairly redundant later once the tank is restocked and hopefully disease free.

Again, I'm sorry to hear about the ongoing woes.

Here is my personal opinion at the moment; please use it in line with other contributions and your own factors to form an approach. This is just what I would do.

1. The Filter Part
   1. Approach 1: The Bioamster 250 has 3.5 media trays (aside from the pre-filter). I would transfer what you can from the Filtrosmart BUT ensure some of the new foam is left in the Biomaster. (i.e. 1 or 2 trays of your current media, and use the pre-filter and the balance of blue and red foams). This means you retain some beneficial bacteria but start the new foams building up. Give it a good amount of time to mature, and really make sure the tank has good aeration.
   2. Approach 2: Leave the current filter running and add the Biomaster, keeping all the current foams and HEL-X media. Squeeze some of the old Filtrosmart nasty stuff into the sponges of the Biomaster to help inoculate. This way, you have two filters running (a bit messy for a while) and can transition after it's mature. Give it a good amount of time to mature, and really make sure the tank has good aeration.
   3. All the above is notwithstanding any help you get from your plants. It's just extra, aimed at getting straight after this event.
   4. IMPORTANT: One area to think about is whether this disease is 'living' in the current filter. I don't know enough about pathogens, and this one has not been identified to check.
2. The Fish Part
   1. I agree that adding new fish at the moment might be premature. However, keep your Ottos (if healthy) while bedding in the new filter. I think they would act as a good sign of health.
3. The UV Part
   1. UV will be a good addition to the setup to help with pathogens. I also don't think there is any reason not to run a UV 24/7. However, it is a support for the filter and not a primary form of filtration. So if money can stretch and space allows, it won't do any harm to act as an additional filter help.

As I said, this is just my opinion. But I hope some of this gives some food for thought.

 

[X3NiTH]

The only negative to running UV 24/7 is that it can degrade any light sensitive chelates bonded with any micro fertilisers, mainly Iron, as long as this is dosed regularly (every day or every other day) then you would reduce the chance of the plants suffering Iron deficiencies.

 

[MichaelJ]

The only negative to running UV 24/7 is that it can degrade any light sensitive chelates bonded with any micro fertilisers, mainly Iron, as long as this is dosed regularly (every day or every other day) then you would reduce the chance of the plants suffering Iron deficiencies.

Hi @X3NiTH You are absolutely right about the photochemical reaction - essentially it's a quantum mechanical effect where high energy photons are breaking said bonds in an effect also known as photodegradation (also why anything we add to our aquarium should be stored in a dark place) However, in a freshwater aquatic environment, like what we are dealing with, and the amount of UV energy we would apply - usually UV-C light in the 4-12 eV range - relative to the fast absorption of Fe, I do not think it's an issue to be concerned about. You would have to use very intense UV light with a high filter turnover to get into trouble from what I understand. Purely anecdotal, I've been running my UV filters 24/7 for a very long time now and never got into trouble with my very modest dosing of Fe EDTA. Again, this is all relative to the intensity of the UV light and the turnover in the filter where the UV light is applied. In case of doubt, just switch off the UV for say 24 hours after dosing Fe.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Dr. White]

Well, there has been some light from the catastrophe of losing all of my cardinals and half the ottos. It gave me the impetus to replace the filter - something I wanted to do, but due to the fact that I'd only been running the old filter from new for four months and it would also necessitate replacing the cabinet I was loath to do for cost reasons.

The Oase Thermofilter 100 I had caused me many issues. Firstly, it was frequently losing power and I was constantly having to clean hoses and fiddle to try and maintain a good flow. With the flow reduced, it wasn't able to hold the temperature steady leading to some quite severe drops. Secondly, I was getting a lot of oily biofilm film on the surface. This should have been cleared up by the surface skimmer on the lily pipe set, but it wasn't. I strongly suspected that the film was going straight through the filter and ejected to rise to the surface again. The filter media in the 100 is very coarse and the water can take very short cuts. In addition, in was frequently taking in air, there appeared to be a gap somewhere just small enough for the air to get in, but not for water to leave. I greased all the o-rings and connections, but it still remained. The filter just seemed like a constant battle. It may have been a lemon, as I know others have had good experiences with it.

I've had the Oase Biomaster 250 running for 3 days now and what a difference! When I first got it out of the box I though "sheet, that looks almost the size of the tank, may need to throttle the flow down a bit"! That's not been the case, thankfully. In the three days, the temp has remained a steady 23 C and the surface is shiny and clear. Very happy.

Interestingly (for me anyway), once the last few cardinals died, I noticed that there were some very, very small white ostracods in the tank. Presumably the cardinals were feeding on these and keeping the population in check that I didn't see any. Nice to know I have some self-replicating live food in the tank.

 

[Bradders]

Great news! I'm keen to see some pics of the tank when you settle. I like the Oase Biomasters, even with all the little quirks they sometimes come with.

What did you do about the transition and media in the end?

 

[Dr. White]

Great news! I'm keen to see some pics of the tank when you settle. I like the Oase Biomasters, even with all the little quirks they sometimes come with.

What did you do about the transition and media in the end?

I kept the coarser blue foam for the bottom layer.
Next basket I put in the ceramic tubes from the old filter after a quick rinse in old tank water, and added 250ml of Seachem Matrix, which filled the basket nicely
Next basket has the plastic biomedia that came with the Biomaster
Final layer the red finer foam

It is probably overkill with biomedia, to be fair! With the small bioload of the tank as it is now and as it will eventually be, the one basket of Matrix/ceramic tubes would be more enough. I was toying with not using the plastic biomedia and keeping another blue foam for added mechanical. But I also thought it may come in handy to have that basket with room for me to add in bags of, say, activated charcoal etc later down the line if needed, so opted to keep it in. It also means I have a spare blue foam if I ever decide the bottom layer needs replacing.

Anyway, for a 60L tank, it is clearly plenty of mechanical and biological filtration! It has also quite significantly increased the amount of water in the system, which is obviously a bonus too.

Will share some photos at some point, but I really want the Marslea hirsuita carpet to finish covering the bottom and the java fern trident to fill out before I take some decent pictures

 

[Bradders]

It is probably overkill with biomedia, to be fair!

I love overkill! Well, you might have a small bioload, so the bacteria may take some time to develop, but it slowly will, and that means you are prepared for the future! My personal opinion is that the overkill will help with pathogens and crystal clear water so let the colony growth go nuts for 6 months!

Will share some photos at some point, but I really want the Marslea hirsuita carpet to finish covering the bottom and the java fern trident to fill out before I take some decent pictures

Yep, very exciting. Looking forward to seeing how it goes!

And, if you get any issues with the Oase, give me a shout - happy to help. I am just about to take my pre-filter sponges down from 45PPI to 30PPI to decrease the cleaning time now one of my filters is at the 8-month maturity mark.