Does CO2 injection cause disease? Thoughts?

[TonyE]

Thats all very interesting. but unfortunately this has nothing to do with age. its not a disease of old age.

 

[Guest]

Thanks Tony, you're right it is very interesting. And thanks also for the background, I think I understand what you're getting at, but that in itself does not constitute scientific evidence, and neither does the paper you linked unfortunately.

You're also right in that Nephrocalcinosis is a concern for the aquaculture industry and I believe it has long been a concern in farming salmonids. However, although there is a suspected link between nephrocalcinosis and high CO2, as far as I'm aware a direct causal link between the two has yet to be established...maybe in part due to confounding factors associated with poor water quality, which are likely to work in synergy to cause disease.

Further, stocking levels and environmental conditions in most of our planted tanks are completely different to those typically associated with aquaculture...they are completely different entities...and therefore the two can not be directly compared.

Like you say the problem is there hasn't been any research to provide scientific evidence. Nevertheless, I'd be really interested to read any peer reviewed literature that demonstrates a significant causal link between Nephrocalcinosis and high dissolved CO2 in planted aquariums. Even then, although this usually ensures a degree of scientific rigour it isn't always the case.

So back to my statement, which you quoted, there still remains a lack of scientific evidence to support it...

 

[zozo]

That's also not realy the point if it has some to do with age or not. I agree with the story that many keepers should realise that the fish health needs to have the first place in a planted tank. Why do we need an article like this to try to get it into peoples minds? That's just historical. shortage in education and the freedom to do what you want with animals in captivity and use them as kind of ornamental subject instead of a living been with feelings, is the problem here.

But in an aqaurium where the co2 levels are kept within healthy parameters fish get as old as in low tech aqauriums. Even if they show abnormalities in their organs compared to low tech kept fish and maybe some die of it eventualy.

The same is.
Why do so many of pet cats die of kidney failure? Because the cat food industry puts a lot of salt in their food as preservative. Most cats die of other causes before they get old enough to devellop that diseas. But many cats still suffer from this and not die of it and cats not killed by other causes and growing old almost all die painfull of failing kidneys and protien poissoning. A cat in nature never will die of kidney failer because it never eats salty. And never will get as old as a pet cat..

 

[TonyE]

However, although there is a suspected link between nephrocalcinosis and high CO2, as far as I'm aware a direct causal link between the two has yet to be established.

It doesn't appear to be a controversial idea. the most cited reference material is Bekesi et al. 1984; Smart et al. 1979; Gottschalk 1991

This info leaflet produce by the scottish government provides other source material.
http://www.gov.scot/Uploads/Documents/16_1996.pdf

I'd be really interested to read any peer reviewed literature that demonstrates a significant causal link between Nephrocalcinosis and high dissolved CO2 in planted aquariums.

thats possibly moving the goalposts. but anyway...

Seems doubtful that would happen as there's no incentive. no money in it. laboratory standard studies don't come cheap. And really, why should any fish disease specialist care? mention elevated CO2 to them and they'll likely just point you at the Journal of Fish Diseases. and the study by Harrison and Richards 1979.

As I mentioned, or implied. the only people who are interested in prevention are those with a financial stake. and/or reliable results in the lab. In both cases the way to prevent it is also non controversial. Also when it turns up in the wild it seems to cause some excitement in environmental science circles. elevated CO2 being a hot topic these days.

fwiw. im glad this is now 'out there' whether your demands for 'proof' will ever be met and whether that will ever satisfy you. remains an open question.

 

[zozo]

Seems doubtful that would happen as there's no incentive. no money in it. laboratory standard studies don't come cheap. And really, why should any fish disease specialist care? .

Thanks for the read..

But why would someone become a fish disease specialist and than not care?

a while back i saw that BBC documentary about dog breeds, was even more disturbing.
Makes me think.. Love and ignorance, hand in hand?

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the Scottish government leaflet, the "causes" section confirms my initial comments in that its considered a phenomenon associated with intensive aquaculture owing to a raft of confounding factors and synergies, which are highly unlikely to occur in our planted aquaria...still no absolute single CO2 casual link either way.

Whether you consider this moving the goal posts or not, is irrelevant...I'm making it relevant to UKAPS which is a forum specifically designed for planted tanks...not aquaculture.

If however, your primary agenda is promoting aquaculture fish health I suggest you address your concerns appropriately elsewhere.

The primary reason it's not financially feasible is because it's not a problem in our planted tanks. Like zozo implies our fish will usually die of old age before they even get a whiff of Nephrocalcinosis...but we're quite happy to send our dead fish to you or Nathan Hill for forensic pathology🙄

Regarding elevated CO2 being a hot topic within environmental circles...well that's a whole different ball game...and one that many people buy in to unconditionally...my advice is to try and think a little more critically...

And finally the open question is...robust science demands rigour in the form of quantitative proof...in this case there isn't any...whether that satisfies me or not is also irrelevant.

 

[TonyE]

But why would someone become a fish disease specialist and than not care?

bad phrasing on my part. put it this way, if you were to ask a scientist interested in this field what high co2 levels do to fish, they will point you at the description. the disease itself and its cause plus method of prevention. why should they care to go further than that?

Thanks for the Scottish government leaflet

more than welcome.

If however, your primary agenda is promoting aquaculture fish health I suggest you address your concerns appropriately elsewhere.

If by aquaculture you mean its strictest sense.. rearing fish for food. then no. thats of no interest to me. I was more interested originally by the short entry in the disease manual at zebrafish.org. Im not partial to danios as a snack item. Im interested in their health. as well as some of the research that has been done on the species.

I guess I'm quite amused by the reaction.. a disease manual for a fish species we keep. I'm guessing that none of the diseases they discuss are even remotely controversial. like velvet disease. but this one is.
never mind eh.

for anyone interested the disease manual can be found here: https://zebrafish.org/health/diseaseManual.php

I think that about wraps this up.

 

[Guest]

In answer to your original post, "Does CO2 injection cause disease?" I think that in the absence of rigorous scientific evidence to support it we can conclude that the answer is a resounding NO!

 

[Jose]

Maybe there isnt much evidence to support this writing but we all have to admit one thing. CO2 is the number one fish killer for the people in this forum. Lets be honest with ourselves here. If you dont want to kill fish then dont use co2. Dont need no evidence to know that. There is one solution though. ADA knows it. Inject co2 and keep it in the form of bubbles, dont dissolve it. Plants do much better this way and so do fish.

 

[Guest]

No it's not Jose...and that is beside the point of this thread...

P.S. I think that stewardship of living organisms, whether they be from the kingdom Plantae or Animalia, is of paramount importance to all of us at UKAPS...

 

[Jose]

Then whats the main cause for fish deathsaround here troy?Maybe its not your case but certainly is for most here including myself. I do think its part of the point of the thread because sometimes we half gas our fish, next day they are fine and eventually die after maybe some weeks. Even if there is no evidence for this. We should just realise this. If you know your weakness then you can get better at it.

Im not really arguing nephrocalcinosis here, just co2.

 

[Guest]

Definitely old age in my case...I have fish that weren't supposed to live so long under any circumstances (CO2 included) but just keep on going...Try not to be too cynical; most of us care a great deal about our pets...small and insignificant though they may seem to others...

 

[Jose]

If anything Im trying to be realistic here trying to think outside my tank. The more you are aware of the dangers of co2 the least fishes you are likely to kill, specially beginners. I have no doubts that experienced hobbiests can keep healthy fish for a long time in this environments. But its about numbers and not about a few exceptions.

 

[Guest]

Maybe a new thread would be more appropriate for this subject...it's best not to conflate issues no matter how closely they at first appear to be related...

 

[alto]

@ TonyE

With zebrafish, high CO2 associated with crowding or the use of calcium carbonate (e.g., crushed coral) are two factors that have the potential to cause nephrocalcinosis. Chen et al. (2001) recommended buffering with sodium bicarbonate. In addition, proper CO2 concentrations should be maintained by proper water exchange and avoiding crowded conditions. Proper atmospheric CO2 levels should be maintained by appropriate ventilation

Do you have a direct link to this paper (or copy) you can share?
Google keeps sending me roundabout

I tried playing ornamental fish + nephrocalcinosis + CO2 but several pages of false leads is all I seem to accumulate.

As I read that (oft copied) statement, the original research dealt only with

1) (extreme!) over-crowding of tilapia (not really closely related to most ornamental fish that I'd be tempted to keep in my home aquarium - I mention this as species significantly affect observed sensitivities of fish (& inverts) to many factors such as ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, sewage waste, industrial effluents etc) causing elevated CO2 levels - which differs rather significantly from the elevated CO2 levels as used in planted aquaria, which tend to quite low fish loads ...
(overcrowding is a major stress factor in fish & impacts many aspects of their physiology)

and

2) calcium carbonate buffering

 

[alto]

As I mentioned, or implied. the only people who are interested in prevention are those with a financial stake. and/or reliable results in the lab.

There are innumerable research projects contributing to masters & doctoral theses & published papers that have no (direct) financial objective.

 

[zozo]

After reading all these articles sheets reports what ever, i can understand the scientific validity of the question "Does Co2 injection make our fish sick?" But asking this question like that with a pointing finger in the aquarium community is on forehand already a bit like putting the cat among the pigeons. i think it's a bit harsh to put it that way among the aquatic plant society's and ask them the not well founded question do you make your fish sick? You do not need to be a psychologist to understand that putting this story out here with such a sensational accusative touch will have more of a counterproductive effect. You are more creating just noise and asking to get the story swept under the carpet and make people to want to forget about it than make 'm think and maybe even help to get funds or just help by stimulating people to observe their livestock more seriously and report findings..

Of what i understand of the chapter Nephrocalcinosis it should rather be considered a condition than a disease a fish suffers from. There are no macroscopic signs observed that the fish suffers at all or even is affected by it. It is occasionaly observed in their diagnostic cases, so with this line i think i'm correct to assume that not all fish are affected with this condition even when kept in the same environmental circumstances. So this means that more research needs to be done to see if other physiologic conditions are a possible cause of this exceleration in accumulation of calcium deposites in their organs. To find out why certain fish or spieces are more susceptible than others. Etc etc.

It's like calling someone with a bladder stone diseased.. And why does my girlfriend have one and i don't and we both live the same condition and eat the same diet?

Wrong place, wrong time (should heve been brought much earlier to attention with a bit more prudence) and so above all wrong reporter.

 

[Iliveinazoo]

In answer to your original post, "Does CO2 injection cause disease?" I think that in the absence of rigorous scientific evidence to support it we can conclude that the answer is a resounding NO!

The thing with studies is that you can always pick holes in the methodology of the experiments and if, as you suggest, there is an absence of 'rigorous' scientific evidence how can you have such a resounding conclusion?

It is well known that high levels of atmospheric CO2 for humans causes lethargy and headaches increasing to asphyxiation and death, the fact that CO2 from respiration from people in buildings such as offices can reach levels high enough to cause lethargy and headaches is why the building services industry has developed ventilation guidelines to keep the workforce more productive. Because CO2 does affect humans negatively it stands to reason that it will also affect other species of animal in a similar way.

While many tanks will have higher than atmospheric CO2 levels that cause little or no ill effects there will be other tanks that run CO2 to such levels that will cause ill effects. I would be very surprised if an animal species could live over an extended period of time in an environment where they are struggling to maintain sufficient levels of oxygen in their bloodstream without a detrimental effect on their immune system.

There will inevitably be variations to what maintained level of CO2 is safe for each species of fish because of the variations of environment from which they originate.

 

[Guest]

I'm sure your right, but we're specifically discussing the link between CO2 injection in a planted aquaria and Nephrocalcinosis in pet fish.
On reflection my concluding comment does seem a little contradictory, however the main thrust of the discussion is based on Tony's suggestion that there was scientific evidence to support the above link, but in actuality I think we've established that there isn't any...at least so far.

 

[zozo]

This debate can only come to one end.. 🙂 If we start humanizing animal behaivor and living conditions.. We can only take it a level higher and come to one conclusion.

We do not like to be captivated in a small invironment, not even under perfect condistions. We could take it for many years but still would go crazy and get bored to dead.

So we should stop keeping pets and stop captivating animals and just keep them where they belong. If you don't have the abilities to visit animals in their natural habitat, just take comfort with looking at a picture or a documentary. Why would you need such an animal in a cage or a tank? What comfort is there to find?

Who are we to put an animal in an confined space and just by looking at say.. Oh!? look how nice it swims... or Oh!? Listen how nice it signs 🙂 It must be happy!?

But on the other hand what do we do, we still do the contrary 🙂 We still see ourselfs as the image of god, devellop intelligence tests and let animals perform tricks. And so we can classify them by brain size and behaivor. We realise, we know so much and still act like we know so little. No wonder we are at the top, we developed and judge the tests our selfs.. What do we realy know?

I know why the caged bird sings... For the caged bird sings of freedom!!



😉

So now we all should go to the little room, lock the door and cry a little. Come out cuddle our tank and turn the needle valve down a notch.
That's what i'm going to do now. Have a nice day..