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Diatoms are good? Sometimes?

hwscot

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apologies if this has been done before .. I did search but couldn't find a thread on it

There is a question here: is it madness to try and encourage diatom growth? Has anyone tried it. The screed below is about how I came to start pondering it.

I disappeared down a rabbit hole. The inciting incident was watching 'The Body on the Beach' documentary in which diatoms played an important part in the forensics. I started reading generally about diatoms. What interested me was the observation in this article that diatoms "increase dissolved oxygen in the water. They produce more oxygen in their life cycle than they consume" and that "the nitrates and phosphates absorbed by diatoms are enclosed by [their] shell and cannot be released back into the water body." These seem like significant benefits for an aquarium.

I came across two groups of people who try to encourage diatom growth, reef tank keepers, particularly if they are trying to grow sponges, and people managing open water / natural swimming pools. And then there are people studying river health who use diatoms as an indicator.

Searching on here for info about them, there are a couple of mentions of diatomaceous earth in filters, otherwise virtually every mention of them is as a bad thing, to be fought like people fight algae (they are a form of algae), and something typically encountered in new aquarium starts. I can see why that's so, for people who are primarily aquascapers and want pristine tanks, but for those of us who are more relaxed about algae, or even want some of it (as a food source for some fish, as part of Aufwuchs particularly for fry). I like to have algae in a growout tank. And I recall a new tank startup which had the usual bloom of diatoms which, when I introduced platys disappeared overnight: the platy's evidently loved it.

So, is there a case for encouraging diatoms which, given they're silica limited, would likely mean dosing silicates like the reefers do. The freshwater trade is full of stuff for eliminating silicates, but I couldn't see any products aimed at dosing them. (The way to dose for them is to use sodium silicate, which is very inexpensive). I found one very helpful article on dosing, by a reef tank keeper, and much of what he says about diatoms wouldn't translate to freshwater, but there's useful data that would translate.

So, I now have sodium silicate solution in my amazon watch list and am pondering. I am technically out of my depth both on the biology and the water chemistry, but intrigued. There seem to be at least 17 different methods of indicating the strength of a waterglass solution, no definite guidance on what ppm we might be aiming for, not a multitude of simple ways to get accurate measurements of dissolved silicate in the tank, and that's all a bit scary. Not least since some of what's available has a very high pH and it's all fun until someone loses an eye.

Is this utter madness? Has anyone else here tried dosing silicate? If so, any practical guidance?
 
Hi @hwscot, I am not entirely sure what you are getting at? You want to grow diatoms as a food source or a way to sequester nitrate and phosphates?

Yes, diatoms is really a very good thing - we wouldn't be here without them. They are tremendous oxygen producers. Actually, most of the oxygen in the atmosphere (which is 21% oxygen) is produced by diatoms. I just wouldn't want too much of them in my tanks :)

To cultivate diatoms I think you just need silicon dioxide, nitrate and phosphates, and trace metals.

A lot of the natural waterways for our fish and plants actually contains quite a bit of Si (5 ppm is not uncommon).

Not sure if any of this helps :)


Is this utter madness?
If so, that just makes it more interesting ;)

Cheers,
Michael
 
People have unwanted outbreaks of diatoms without dosing any Silicon, I imagine that the concentrations that occur naturally in our tanks is more than enough to let them grow.

Seeing how they tend to spawn at tank start-up and then disappear as it matures, I imagine that it has much to do with competition in the microbiota level. As the slower colonies pick up their paces, the diatoms lose space.
 
People have unwanted outbreaks of diatoms without dosing any Silicon, I imagine that the concentrations that occur naturally in our tanks is more than enough to let them grow.

Seeing how they tend to spawn at tank start-up and then disappear as it matures, I imagine that it has much to do with competition in the microbiota level. bsorAs the slower colonies pick up their paces, the diatoms lose space.
as I understand it, silicon is quickly used up and that's why the initial surge of diatom growth quickly falls away. If you don't keep dosing, there's very little that we routinely put into our tanks that will support a sustained population.

And yes, as you say, silicate levels in natural water courses can be very high, but I'm struck by the wide range of values recorded, with significant variation simply by depth in a given body of water. And there's clearly a huge variation in different diatom species' capacity to absorb silica from different concentrations. Lots and lots of variables.

Hi @hwscot, I am not entirely sure what you are getting at? You want to grow diatoms as a food source or a way to sequester nitrate and phosphates?
That, and the oxygenation. I have a couple of heavily stocked tanks with livebearers .. .a stock tank and a growout tank. So if the diatoms are an additional food sources that's just another plus.

So I could see it being useful for those tanks, but I'm also just a little surprised that it seems not to be much discussed. With green algae, we often hear the advice to learn to live with a modest level, but with diatoms, they seem to get an unfailingly bad press.
 
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trying to delete this one .. is there a way to delete a post? Have just put it all in the one post above.
No, you can’t delete a post but you can edit it and just replace the text with DELETE and the admins will usually catch it and delete it.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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You probably want diatoms on a lot of Biotopes or even a bit food source for certain fish, or just for a natural look
 
as I understand it, silicon is quickly used up and that's why the initial surge of diatom growth quickly falls away. If you don't keep dosing, there's very little that we routinely put into our tanks that will support a sustained population.

In would imagine we add sufficient silicon at every water change to support a diatom population, they appear to only require very small trace amounts.

I think it is more a case of:

it has much to do with competition in the microbiota level.

They are simply out competed by other microbes and algae once a tank starts to mature biologically.

That, and the oxygenation.

I doubt diatoms will consume a great deal of nutrients from the water column. Plants would be much more effective, both at the nutrient consumption and the oxygen generation.
 
Hi all,
I'm a diatom fan, particularly of Bacillaria paradoxa, the "slide rule" diatom.
The inciting incident was watching 'The Body on the Beach' documentary in which diatoms played an important part in the forensics.
The persistent, and species specific, diatom frustule means that they can be used for all sorts of things, <"forensics">, <"climate and habitat reconstruction"> and as a <"trophic index">.
I started reading generally about diatoms. What interested me was the observation in this article that diatoms "increase dissolved oxygen in the water. They produce more oxygen in their life cycle than they consume" .
True. All actively growing photosynthetic organisms produce more oxygen than they consume, the plant growth is literally the difference between CO2 incorporated and oxygen evolved. Diatoms produce about 1/3 of the <"World's oxygen">, but that is mainly because <"there are an awful lot of them">.
and that "the nitrates and phosphates absorbed by diatoms are enclosed by [their] shell and cannot be released back into the water body." These seem like significant benefits for an aquarium.
Also <"true in the sea">, not so much in the aquarium, where they won't sink into the oceanic abyss, but to the sediment where those nutrients will be recycled, <"leaving the frustule behind">. You could harvest those nutrients "second hand", by allowing snails (or shrimps) to eat the diatoms and then removing them. When the snail is rehomed, the diatoms nutrients go with it.
People have unwanted outbreaks of diatoms without dosing any Silicon, I imagine that the concentrations that occur naturally in our tanks is more than enough to let them grow.
I'm pretty sure you are right, diatom growth can occur at levels of silicon (Si) that are undetectable with analytical equipment. We know there is soluble silicon present (because the diatoms are producing frustules), but it is at a level below our detection limit.
Diatoms are so efficient at up-taking silicon from their surrounding environment that they can virtually deplete the silicon levels to such an extent that it becomes undetectable using standard water analysis techniques.14
You could try adding orthosilicic acid, but I'm not sure it will make any difference. Diatoms are actually quite mysterious organisms, even now <"A review on diatom biosilicification and their adaptive ability to uptake other metals into their frustules for potential application in bone repair - Journal of Materials Chemistry B (RSC Publishing) DOI:10.1039/D1TB00322D">.
....... the diatoms need a silica source for frustule construction from their external environment. Soluble silicon is found in moist or aquatic environments in the form of orthosilicic acid (Si(OH)4).13 It comprises 97% of total dissolved silicon. Diatoms predominately utilise this silicic acid, but it is unknown if other silicon forms are utilised by diatoms.........
In would imagine we add sufficient silicon at every water change to support a diatom population, they appear to only require very small trace amounts. I think it is more a case of they are simply out competed by other microbes and algae once a tank starts to mature biologically. I doubt diatoms will consume a great deal of nutrients from the water column. Plants would be much more effective, both at the nutrient consumption and the oxygen generation.
I'm also sure that is right, it is "boom and bust" normally with diatoms.

14 F. E. Round, R. M. Crawford and D. G. Mann, Diatoms: Biology and Morphology of the Genera, 2007

cheers Darrel
 
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I'm also sure that is right, it is "boom and bust" normally with diatoms.
That’s a good way of putting it. And @Wookii hit it right on the nose with:
They are simply out competed by other microbes and algae once a tank starts to mature biologically.
Hence why we always say that diatoms will eventually disappear as the tank matures. But then what do you do if you actually want to cultivate diatoms? … I guess it can be rephrased into: how do you prevent the tank from maturing biologically?

Yes @hwscot, now I see the madness… like this :lol:

Cheers,
Michael
 
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