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Desert's Edge
- Thread starter hotweldfire
- Start date
hotweldfire
Member
Thanks both. Rescape done but I'm afraid I don't have photos. I have to take photos at night because of the reflections I get in the daytime and it's in a bedroom so small window of opportunity I'm afraid. Hopefully will manage some time this week.
In the meantime, firstly, a new name. TBH I've been meaning to call it this for a long time but it looked so far from the edge of a desert that I was too embarrassed to rename the thread. Happily it's looking closer to the vision I had of it. Secondly, some rescaping shots until I get proper ones up (sorry to be a tease):
This is what it looked like the morning I tore it down:
15-8-12_3 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
New substrate. Firstly verdant pastures and all that:
15-8-12_2 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Went for the malaya because of less release of ammonia. Coarse stuff on bottom, sand type at top.
Then B&Q non-toxic play sand to cap most of the surface but with a bit of the malaya sand showing back right corner:
15-8-12_1 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Fish took half the day to catch. Only managed it in the end by herding them into a bottle trap. Left them sitting in a plastic box (food safe) with a HOB running.
15-8-12_4 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Kept most of the tank water:
15-8-12_5 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Hell of a lot of substrate to dig out. This tank was about 8 years old (at least some of the substrate was) and it has been topped up more than once. Unfortunately the process of pulling out all that coarse gravel resulted in some scratches but nothing major:
15-8-12_7 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
And here it is stripped down:
5-8-12_8 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
That's all I've got right now. More later. Basic problem with the scape had been the tank didn't have enough depth for me to get the look I wanted. As you'll see when I post new pics that hasn't changed but I think it is looking closer to what I wanted anyway. Unfortunately, as luck would have it, the day I decided to rescape was the day my solenoid packed in so low co2 levels for already stressed plants whilst I try to work out optimal 24/7 injection rates. Hopefully not everything will melt by the time I get it right.
In the meantime, firstly, a new name. TBH I've been meaning to call it this for a long time but it looked so far from the edge of a desert that I was too embarrassed to rename the thread. Happily it's looking closer to the vision I had of it. Secondly, some rescaping shots until I get proper ones up (sorry to be a tease):
This is what it looked like the morning I tore it down:
15-8-12_3 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
New substrate. Firstly verdant pastures and all that:
15-8-12_2 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Went for the malaya because of less release of ammonia. Coarse stuff on bottom, sand type at top.
Then B&Q non-toxic play sand to cap most of the surface but with a bit of the malaya sand showing back right corner:
15-8-12_1 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Fish took half the day to catch. Only managed it in the end by herding them into a bottle trap. Left them sitting in a plastic box (food safe) with a HOB running.
15-8-12_4 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Kept most of the tank water:
15-8-12_5 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Hell of a lot of substrate to dig out. This tank was about 8 years old (at least some of the substrate was) and it has been topped up more than once. Unfortunately the process of pulling out all that coarse gravel resulted in some scratches but nothing major:
15-8-12_7 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
And here it is stripped down:
5-8-12_8 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
That's all I've got right now. More later. Basic problem with the scape had been the tank didn't have enough depth for me to get the look I wanted. As you'll see when I post new pics that hasn't changed but I think it is looking closer to what I wanted anyway. Unfortunately, as luck would have it, the day I decided to rescape was the day my solenoid packed in so low co2 levels for already stressed plants whilst I try to work out optimal 24/7 injection rates. Hopefully not everything will melt by the time I get it right.
hotweldfire
Member
Photos as promised. Please try to ignore all the moss meshes and ferns on the left hand side: these need attaching to hardscape. There should be nothing on the far left but rock and sand.
24-8-12_1 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
24-8-12_2 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
24-8-12_4 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
24-8-12_3 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Basic problem with the tank remains which is that it isn't quite big enough for what I want to do. In particular the depth is lacking. So, the stems when grown in aren't going to look that great because they're only be a thin line of them and the needle leaf is already too big for the tank. Still, it's an improvement I think and should grow in well. Hasn't had the easiest start because, sod's law, the day I rescaped was the day the solenoid packed in so I've been running inadequate co2. Starting to bounce back now I hope.
24-8-12_1 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
24-8-12_2 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
24-8-12_4 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
24-8-12_3 by hotweldfire, on Flickr
Basic problem with the tank remains which is that it isn't quite big enough for what I want to do. In particular the depth is lacking. So, the stems when grown in aren't going to look that great because they're only be a thin line of them and the needle leaf is already too big for the tank. Still, it's an improvement I think and should grow in well. Hasn't had the easiest start because, sod's law, the day I rescaped was the day the solenoid packed in so I've been running inadequate co2. Starting to bounce back now I hope.
nry
Member
Liking that a lot, looks great 🙂
Ian Holdich
Member
nicely done! looks really clean and tidy.
tim
Member
looks just like the name you chose for it 
hotweldfire
Member
Thanks all. Looks a bit too neat and tidy at the moment but that will change as it grows in.
Westyggx
Member
Looks cool mate, nice and fresh looking.
hotweldfire
Member
Thanks all. Will post updated photo shortly.
In the meantime here's a conundrum for all you co2 gurus. I'm still not getting co2 right as evidenced by the film on the water and wee bits of bba and cladophora. Here's my daily schedule with PH readings:
11:30 co2 on. PH 7.6
12:30 7.1
13:00 7.1
14:00 Lights on. PH 7.0
14:30 6.9
15:10 6.8
16:15 6.8
17:00 6.7
18:00 6.7
18:30 co2 off
19:00 6.8
20:00 lights off. PH reading jumping between 6.8 and 6.9
As a reminder, co2 is via UP inline. Note: PH readings were taken from the top opposite corner of the tank from the filter outlet. Drop checker reads on the yellow side of lime green by end of day.
So it would appear that the co2 concentration doesn't reach its maximum until 3 hours after lights on. That's despite it coming on 2 and a half hours before lights on. Should I turn it on even earlier or up the injection rate?
Also, the concentration starts dropping off as soon as co2 goes off. I'm surprised by that as I thought plants don't really use it up at the end of the photoperiod so was expecting it to stay level. Should I keep it running later?
In the meantime here's a conundrum for all you co2 gurus. I'm still not getting co2 right as evidenced by the film on the water and wee bits of bba and cladophora. Here's my daily schedule with PH readings:
11:30 co2 on. PH 7.6
12:30 7.1
13:00 7.1
14:00 Lights on. PH 7.0
14:30 6.9
15:10 6.8
16:15 6.8
17:00 6.7
18:00 6.7
18:30 co2 off
19:00 6.8
20:00 lights off. PH reading jumping between 6.8 and 6.9
As a reminder, co2 is via UP inline. Note: PH readings were taken from the top opposite corner of the tank from the filter outlet. Drop checker reads on the yellow side of lime green by end of day.
So it would appear that the co2 concentration doesn't reach its maximum until 3 hours after lights on. That's despite it coming on 2 and a half hours before lights on. Should I turn it on even earlier or up the injection rate?
Also, the concentration starts dropping off as soon as co2 goes off. I'm surprised by that as I thought plants don't really use it up at the end of the photoperiod so was expecting it to stay level. Should I keep it running later?
A
Antipofish
Guest
Hey Sajid. Im not sure I agree that the film on the surface is directly linked to your problems. Plants do give off a film and it can be linked to water change regime too, and also what type of plants you have. I have found the faster growing plants seem to be worse. (I dont know what yours is but knowing you I would expect it is fine). I have found too that by running an air pump I eliminate the surface scum and increase the available oxygen for the fish, which in turn means I can up my CO2 also. My concentrations were similar to yours with a 3 hour before lights start time. The CO2 levels will reduce immediately because they are being exchanged at the water surface (as you probably knew) so that does not surprise me. You stated that the plants don't use as much CO2 towards the end of the photoperiod. In a normal environment I suspect that is correct, because the light levels are diminishing with sun down. However unless you run a dimmer on your lights Im not sure this would be entirely accurate in an aquarium. Other peoples' thoughts on that theory would be interesting to hear.
hotweldfire
Member
Hi Chris,
Quite a bit of sense in what you're saying. I would, in the first instance though, disagree with you about the surface film. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that 9 times out of 10 this is indicative of poor (or at least non optimal) plant health.
What I'm aiming for, on the basis of accepted wisdom on this forum, is highest level of concentration at lights on and then reduced concentration at the end of the photoperiod. However, what you say is sensible. Why in a tank would plants require less co2 at the end of the photoperiod if the light levels are the same?
Are you not worried about your co2 not being at its highest when lights come on? I believe Clive and others have argued that this is as much of a problem as overall inadequate levels of co2.
Quite a bit of sense in what you're saying. I would, in the first instance though, disagree with you about the surface film. I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that 9 times out of 10 this is indicative of poor (or at least non optimal) plant health.
What I'm aiming for, on the basis of accepted wisdom on this forum, is highest level of concentration at lights on and then reduced concentration at the end of the photoperiod. However, what you say is sensible. Why in a tank would plants require less co2 at the end of the photoperiod if the light levels are the same?
Are you not worried about your co2 not being at its highest when lights come on? I believe Clive and others have argued that this is as much of a problem as overall inadequate levels of co2.
A
Antipofish
Guest
hotweldfire said:
I would prefer it to be better, and I will aim o get it there when the new tank is set up. But I am not overly worried as my plants seem healthy enough. I agree with you though, why would plants require less CO2 if the lighting level is the same until the end of the period. But then in my tank, this is not the case as I ramp my lighting down... I use a TMC controller.
Re the surface film... Mark Evans has said several times that he gets this (and has told us that he removes it using an icecream tub). I don't know that he gets it all the time, but I recall other successful scapers whose tanks look amazing, also saying they do get scum. I suppose there is scum and there is scum, and different tanks / plant combinations will create different amounts, so there is an element of relativity there. I'm not saying you are wrong either. There has to be an element of truth there, but what plant is 100% healthy ? Life by its very nature is never 100% healthy as cells are always dying. Be they ours or our plants' 🙂
hotweldfire said:
Antipofish said:
I agree with Antipofish on this one. If the light intensity does not vary throughout the photoperiod, the plants aren't to know that the photoperiod is coming to an end. Therefore the nutrient uptake and co2 consumption should stay constant (assuming all other factors remain the same)
But maybe in a natural environment, or simulated sunset, the plants rate of photosynthesis would begin to slow down. Makes sense, but I could be wrong.
I'm interested in this. Do plants need a dark period for O2 uptake or could they grow more with a constant lights fert and co2 source? Do they need dark periods at all to survive? (Obviously our fish need a dark period, so its directly a question related to plants) I'm sure I read that Richard from aqua essentials was running one if his hydroponic pods 24/7 to increase growth speed, but I could be wrong. If plants do require 'down time' from light, and need an O2 feed then it makes sense that naturally they will have a maximum uptake rate during the photoperiod which would slow down. In nature this is obviously related to the intensity of the sun so it will be good to know if most of our single intensity lighting drives the plants hunger all through the light period, or if plants naturally reduce there uptake....and if they do, how long are they at maximum uptake?
I'm suspecting as light is the driving force, and as we try to optimise co2 for lights on that the same should apply until lights out....Clive has alluded before to the fact that co2 can be shut off a few hours prior to lights off but i dont know if this relates/depends on the rate of off gassing of co2? with high surface agitation it may be better to run co2 till about an hour before the end of the photoperiod or closer? if plants do naturally reduce uptake rates after a length of time then its not so important.....we need an expert to clarify!?
Cheerio,
Ady
I'm suspecting as light is the driving force, and as we try to optimise co2 for lights on that the same should apply until lights out....Clive has alluded before to the fact that co2 can be shut off a few hours prior to lights off but i dont know if this relates/depends on the rate of off gassing of co2? with high surface agitation it may be better to run co2 till about an hour before the end of the photoperiod or closer? if plants do naturally reduce uptake rates after a length of time then its not so important.....we need an expert to clarify!?
Cheerio,
Ady
Actually I see in my tank that many species of plants "close" themselves (leaves become in an upright position) when lights are due to switch off. And have no dimmer. So this probably indicates that plants know exactly when the lights are going off.
I should know better but as far as I recall I think that plants do not need the dark period.
cheers
GM
I should know better but as far as I recall I think that plants do not need the dark period.
cheers
GM
hotweldfire
Member
Interesting. The question is how would the plants know? Are they hardwired for a certain photoperiod? I struggle with that idea given that they have to adapt to fluctuating photoperiods over the course of a year, with longer ones in summer and shorter in winter. But perhaps that only applies to plants from temperate zones. Perhaps near the equator the photoperiod doesn't fluctuate much so it is adaptive for them to start shutting off after, say, 6 hours? Dunno. I agree we need a botanist to tell us what's what (*cough* Darrel *cough*).
What about the start of the photoperiod then? If it is true that they naturally slow down uptake at the end of the photoperiod wouldn't the opposite be true at the start? I.e. that they wake up slowly? In which case do we really need the co2 to be optimum at lights on?
What about the start of the photoperiod then? If it is true that they naturally slow down uptake at the end of the photoperiod wouldn't the opposite be true at the start? I.e. that they wake up slowly? In which case do we really need the co2 to be optimum at lights on?
Ian Holdich
Member
Ady34 said:
I remember Tom and co, claiming that aquatic plants have a point where they shut off, i remember the uptake of c02 was at a maximum at the first few hours, the rest was redundant. They would continue to photosynthesise, but there was certainly a shut off point im sure. As for the scum in a tank, i think we all suffer from it TBH, IME i think its due to the C02, and wasted C02. This is purely a hypothesis as it happens more so on high tech tanks. I have also notices that it happens when you ramp the temps a little more, which would explain the wasted C02.
Just a theory.
viktorlantos
Aquascaper
You have scum on this tank because you have algae. Once algae will go off scum will disappear. A healthy tank surface is clean. Since you mention you have algae already i would focus on to remove them and your problem will be solved with the surface too.
