Cory pandas keep dying

[pseudodiego]

I don't know if the problem is becoming more prevalent but I've seen quite a few people suffer with possible shipping issues and I wonder if it's partly because postal costs have risen, so some suppliers are minimising the amount of weight by reducing water. Certainly here sellers that use royal mail, often keep weight down to the cost of the fish.

Were these fish sent in a large/adequate poly box or was it a bit of a squeeze?

Sometimes sellers also ship fish out that have only just recently arrived and multiple shipping stresses can really do some damage.

They were all sent in big bag, same as the other fish. Maybe they are more prone to have problems when shipped like that. If I buy any more cory, it will be in person.

The five remaining were okay today, even the one that were not okay yesterday.
Pretty active and eating normally as a group, no signs of scratching or bad swimming. I hope they don't relapse.

 

[mort]

If they were shipped together in the bag I'd say that's the most likely cause of the issues...problems due to ammonia building up in the bag and then subsequent acclimating are usually pretty instant.
I've only had that happen once when some fish were sent to me with too many fish in bags that were way too small,within 2 minutes of opening the bags they went belly up due to ph drop....never had a problem acclimating before or since.

Hi miranda, so are you thinking it was due to them being shipped together rather than due to ammonia (because the reaction was to slow). I've read your reply a couple of times and think you are suggesting it's not ammonia but it reads both for/against in my head.

 

[MirandaB]

Hi miranda, so are you thinking it was due to them being shipped together rather than due to ammonia (because the reaction was to slow). I've read your reply a couple of times and think you are suggesting it's not ammonia but it reads both for/against in my head.

Hi Mort,sorry I should have made that clearer.
Yes I think it's more likely down to them all being shipped in the same bag which is not a good idea at the best of times but even less so with Cory.

 

[Conort2]

They were all sent in big bag, same as the other fish. Maybe they are more prone to have problems when shipped like that. If I buy any more cory, it will be in person.

I think that may be the issue, especially as corydoras are known to release a toxin when stressed. They should ideally be sent individually. I had 18 small tetras sent recently and each was individually bagged so there should be no excuse for something risky like a corydoras. You also have the issue that if one dies in the bag they all die.

 

[X3NiTH]

within 2 minutes of opening the bags they went belly up due to ph drop

From what I have learned Fish travelling for a long time in a sealed bag will experience the pH drop, this generally isn’t the problem, the problem is that the moment you open that bag the oxygen depleted water will suddenly gain access to a huge influx of oxygen and because of the guaranteed presence of Ammonium from the Fish (in Ammonium form because the below neutral pH lowered from CO2 via respiration) it will all be converted to 10x more toxic Ammonia as the pH climbs above neutral as the gases in the water equilibriate with the atmosphere. The longer the time in the open bag the greater the risk of this happening.

There’s two options here, in both cases Temperature acclimate with the bag remaining sealed and floating in the aquarium (or elsewhere but to the same temp). If needing to Drip acclimate then open the bag (before or after reaching temperature) and dose the correct amount of Ammonia detoxifier for the volume of water in the bag (measured by displacement, Archimedes principle), then drip acclimate. The other option is once at temperature hold the bag by the neck to keep the original atmosphere, unseal the bag and upend the whole contents into a net suspended over a bucket and then quickly place the fish into the receiving Aquarium.

The first option I think is best performed if the fish are going into dissimilar water parameters from where they were originally kept, the second option is best if you know the water parameters are similar or if forced by an emergency in the bag, I would class a large amount of Ammonium in the bag and no way to immediately detoxify as an emergency.

🙂

 

[pseudodiego]

I think that may be the issue, especially as corydoras are known to release a toxin when stressed. They should ideally be sent individually. I had 18 small tetras sent recently and each was individually bagged so there should be no excuse for something risky like a corydoras. You also have the issue that if one dies in the bag they all die.

Been buying fish for a long time here at spain at very different online stores and not once they have send the fish separated. Sounds like a good practice.

 

[mort]

Hi Mort,sorry I should have made that clearer.
Yes I think it's more likely down to them all being shipped in the same bag which is not a good idea at the best of times but even less so with Cory.

Can I ask what you think the mechanism is in this case? Poor water quality or the famed release of toxins cories are capable of?

With regards to toxins the only time I've seen it has been with big cories in a large number and the water was very frothy on top and quite milky/yellow in colour. My wholesaler friend said it's generally noticeable when this happens but that is with higher stocking density (and im remembering from years ago). I didn't think pandas were supposed to be that problematic, it was more an issue with bigger bodied species like sterbai (the ones I had problems with), trillineatus, Julii etc. There is no doubting pandas can be quite sensitive so poor water quality is certainly a sensible conclusion.

 

[MirandaB]

From what I have learned Fish travelling for

Can I ask what you think the mechanism is in this case? Poor water quality or the famed release of toxins cories are capable of?

With regards to toxins the only time I've seen it has been with big cories in a large number and the water was very frothy on top and quite milky/yellow in colour. My wholesaler friend said it's generally noticeable when this happens but that is with higher stocking density (and im remembering from years ago). I didn't think pandas were supposed to be that problematic, it was more an issue with bigger bodied species like sterbai (the ones I had problems with), trillineatus, Julii etc. There is no doubting pandas can be quite sensitive so poor water quality is certainly a sensible conclusion.

To be honest it could be either or a combination of both but it would have been interesting to see just how bad the bag water was for ammonia etc.
Spoke to my lfs and they say they've had toxin issues a couple of times but it was sterbai in both cases.
@pseudodiego do they ship overnight by courier over there?

 

[X3NiTH]

On occasion I have seen large volume Cory shipments arrive like a bag of milk, it’s not pretty and not always a total loss. The more successful shipments usually come with a handful of Zeolite and Activated Carbon in the bottom of the bag. Pandas are Venemous so I believe the chances for self poisoning through excretion or harm during transport are higher.

🙂

 

[pseudodiego]

To be honest it could be either or a combination of both but it would have been interesting to see just how bad the bag water was for ammonia etc.
Spoke to my lfs and they say they've had toxin issues a couple of times but it was sterbai in both cases.
@pseudodiego do they ship overnight by courier over there?

Yeah. It usually ships around 20:00 of the previous day and arrives 11:00/12:00 of the next day.

 

[pseudodiego]

Happy to say that the five corys are still alive and acting normally now.

 

[NatalieHurrell]

Hi, I've just skimmed the thread but I see they were sent overnight and then they had a long acclimation. I don't have time at the minute to go into detail but if the others think I'm right then perhaps one would clarify, but this might be the problem. Overnight shipping and then a lengthy acclimation with the bag open to the air might be the issue. The fish pollute the water but it isn't a problem until you open the bag.

I thought this too, plus if the bag isn't floated in the aquarium to keep it warm the temperature will drop further still.

 

[PARAGUAY]

I have seen this in a shop with a delivery of fish The bags were placed in tanks unopened. Great news the Corys doing well @pseudodiego