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Confusion over EI and Water Changes

Vinkenoog1977 said:
The EI started kit you bought is just fine, just dose 1/4 of the amount that is recommended in the packaging, and the same goes for liquid carbon; instead of 1 ml. per 50 ltr., dose 1 ml. per 200 ltrs. This will technically still be a high tech tank by the way, since you will be supplementing ferts and a form of carbon. This will also mean that you will have to do water changes at LEAST once every 2 weeks, around 30% minimum, to rid the water of the waste materials. The thing that is dictating that, is the amount of light you are injecting; more light for the plants, means they need more ferts and CO2 to use all that light to grow healthy; if ferts and CO2 are missing, algae WILL take over.

The suggested light period of 4 hours is the absolute MINIMUM as far as duration is concerned, since the plants need at least 4 hours of light to get their photosynthesis going; I would rather suggest 6 hours of light. And if you do really want to go low tech, you will have to address the amount of light; this would mean decreasing the intensity of the lamps by around 30-50%, by the methods suggested earlier (diffusion films, et cetera).
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Thank you for that explanation.

So, I didn't really want to go high tech. But I can deal with doing quarter doses of ferts and carbon. It seems it easier than dealing with the lights issue.

I take it gas is better than liquid but involves a lot more work?

ian_m said:
Yes, absolutely fine.

My mate was dosing 1/4 amount (1ml for his 200l) every day he remembers to feed fish (doses ferts as well). Changes some water every couple of weeks. Again low tech so all happens slowly. His single T5 is 4 hours a day and has a sheet of darkened plastic in between light and tank.
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Sounds like a starting point. Thank you.
 
Kam Sandhu said:
I take it gas is better than liquid but involves a lot more work?
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Yes gas is better in that you can get higher carbon levels into the tank and at quite low cost. Dosing at equivalent liquid carbon levels would possibly be fatal to fish and cost a fortune. (there are cheaper ways to liquid carbon, but not for beginners, search gluteraldehyde to see).

If going low tech (low light) liquid carbon doses are small, thus quite cheap. You could use CO2 gas to do the equivalent, but CO2 costs money for regulator etc and one 2Kg tank would last a year maybe.
 
Gas sounds like it has the potential to go wrong fast.

I think to start with I'll go with small doses of ferts and carbon. And I'll reassess in 6 or 8 months.

Thank you all for the great advice. I would have done things very wrong.
 
You could always go with a lower amount of CO2, for instance via the DIY route (yeast and sugar plus water), plenty of tutorials on Youtube. But I saw you had a Juwel tank, is that with the internal filter? If so, you can easily rig up something using the 02 Diffusor kit Juwel sell; if you push a cigarette filter into the end of the CO2-tube, and then attach that to the nozzle of the diffusor, and you stuff some coarse filter foam into the diffusor, you get quite small bubbles, and a good circulation through the tank (I use this on my Lido 120, and works a charm). If interested, I can explain what I've done to get this rigged up in some more detail, and if you use a low amount of CO2, plus lower light (6 hours), you are almost guaranteed algae free! And no need for (expensive) liquid carbon. With a 2 ltr. bottle, you can rig up a DIY CO2-system that will run quite consistently for around 3 weeks.

P.S.: You would still have to dose ferts of course, twice a week at half dose (with the BIO CO2; with EI, you can't really overdose and cause negative effects, it just dissapates (sic?)), and water changes 30-40% every two weeks. With only liquid carbon, I'd say 1/4 dose twice a week, of 1/2 dose once a week (instead of daily).
 
Vinkenoog1977 said:
You could always go with a lower amount of CO2, for instance via the DIY route (yeast and sugar plus water), plenty of tutorials on Youtube. But I saw you had a Juwel tank, is that with the internal filter? If so, you can easily rig up something using the 02 Diffusor kit Juwel sell; if you push a cigarette filter into the end of the CO2-tube, and then attach that to the nozzle of the diffusor, and you stuff some coarse filter foam into the diffusor, you get quite small bubbles, and a good circulation through the tank (I use this on my Lido 120, and works a charm). If interested, I can explain what I've done to get this rigged up in some more detail, and if you use a low amount of CO2, plus lower light (6 hours), you are almost guaranteed algae free! And no need for (expensive) liquid carbon. With a 2 ltr. bottle, you can rig up a DIY CO2-system that will run quite consistently for around 3 weeks.

P.S.: You would still have to dose ferts of course, twice a week at half dose (with the BIO CO2; with EI, you can't really overdose and cause negative effects, it just dissapates (sic?)), and water changes 30-40% every two weeks. With only liquid carbon, I'd say 1/4 dose twice a week, of 1/2 dose once a week (instead of daily).
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Thanks for the great info, sounds like a possibility in the future.

I think for now, I want to keep it simple. I will stick to ferts + liquid carbon and water changes.

So......

1/4 carbon twice a week. 1/4 ferts everyday?

I dont mind doing water changes every week as I like to clean the filter wool.
 
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Vinkenoog1977 said:
Start with that, and see how it goes!
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Sounds good, thanks for all the input.

I start tomorrow and will make some sort of journal.

Really looking forward to this.

Just out of curiosity, why not dose carbon everyday?
 
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Vinkenoog1977 said:
You could dose daily, however, due to the lowered amount of light, the plants won't need it, which would make it a total waste of money (which I why I suggested DIY CO2), plus, you would again be well on your way to high tech.
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Cool got it, so, after a few weeks or months I wanted to increase lighting to saw 8 hours, I would need to increase carbon.

I think, eventually, I will go for some sort of gas CO2, but for now, I just want to start of slow.
 
Kam Sandhu said:
Cool got it, so, after a few weeks or months I wanted to increase lighting to saw 8 hours, I would need to increase carbon.
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Correct, you need to match the light level/duration to the amount of carbon and ferts your provide. Increase light, increase CO2 & ferts or else plants will die due to lack of food, rot away and feed the algae.

Increase light level beyond approximately 1-2Watts per US gallon and you are into high tech territory and will need CO2 and EI ferts levels to keep the plants satisfied.
 
ian_m said:
Correct, you need to match the light level/duration to the amount of carbon and ferts your provide. Increase light, increase CO2 & ferts or else plants will die due to lack of food, rot away and feed the algae.

Increase light level beyond approximately 1-2Watts per US gallon and you are into high tech territory and will need CO2 and EI ferts levels to keep the plants satisfied.
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Perfect, I'll start off with daily ferts, 2 x carbon a week, 6 hours of lights for a month or so.

Great help, thank you all.
 
Kam Sandhu said:
I'll start off with daily ferts
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Maybe not necessary, as I said my mate doses a couple of time a week, when he remembers to feed fish. Not an exact science, but as everything is growing slowly doesn't really matter.

Just remember to dose the macro ferts and micro ferts alternately and not at same time as they will interact if dosed together. Can be dosed at same time as liquid carbon.

Also the liquid carbon will dissipate within 24hours (reacts with stuff in the tank), this is why the bottle says dose daily, but in low light case, as long as dosed every couple of days you will be fine.
 
ian_m said:
Just remember to dose the macro ferts and micro ferts alternately and not at same time as they will interact if dosed together. Can be dosed at same time as liquid carbon.

Also the liquid carbon will dissipate within 24hours (reacts with stuff in the tank), this is why the bottle says dose daily, but in low light case, as long as dosed every couple of days you will be fine.
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Great info again.

After a few months, if all goes well, I will consider a yeast reactor and move high tech (if all goes well).

I didnt like the idea of paying for a CO2 kit, but the yeast option looks doable.

But, one step at a time.
 
Kam Sandhu said:
I will consider a yeast reactor and move high tech (if all goes well).
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Think very carefully before attempting high tech with yeast.....a forum search will put you off...

Issues are:
- Needs constant maintenance to keep fresh yeast reactors.
- Very prone to leaking as must be broken apart and fiddled with every couple of days when your change the yeast mixture.
- Produces variable CO2 levels. Variable CO2 levels produce plant issues and algae.
- Produces CO2 24/7. Issues at night when plants produce CO2 as well and can end up gassing fish during the night. (use nightly air stone or put solenoid on to vent CO2 at night).
- Produces more CO2 in summer than winter.
- Some people have had "expensive room decorating incidents" where yeast reactor has exploded in their lounge.
- Yeast mixture getting into tank will invariably kill the fish.

However....
- Its cheap.
 
Excellent article, well found.

I would agree with liquid carbon and egeris densa. I had loads doing really manic in my CO2 tank, when I first set it up, then used Excel to kill BBA growing on the wood and "liquefied" the egeris densa overnight.
 
Right
So I have my tank setup, plants in etc.

Only been a few days and so far so good. Not much growth as expected.

Doing some more reading and I have come across soda stream and paintball co2 systems, look simple and cheap to buy.

This makes it extremely tempting.

If I was to get one, what would I need to do different that I do now? Stop dosing excel, dose ferts everyday at full dosage, regular 50% water changes, anything else?

Is it worth it?
 
depends on how much time and energy you want to put into your tank. There's a lot more that can go wrong the more equipment you put into a tank. You'll need to do full EI and regular water changes plus a lot more general care of the tank. If you have the time to put into it you'll get faster growth if you get everything right. Low tech, liquid CO2 and full CO2 all have their advantages and disadvantages. I suggest popping on to the barr report and and look into the Estimate Index and the non-co2 sections and read the stickies.
 
EnderUK said:
depends on how much time and energy you want to put into your tank. There's a lot more that can go wrong the more equipment you put into a tank. You'll need to do full EI and regular water changes plus a lot more general care of the tank. If you have the time to put into it you'll get faster growth if you get everything right. Low tech, liquid CO2 and full CO2 all have their advantages and disadvantages. I suggest popping on to the barr report and and look into the Estimate Index and the non-co2 sections and read the stickies.
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I do have the time for maintaining the tank. That's not an issue, I'm prepared to put the work in for a nice tank.

I've already read about EI and I'm dosing at quarter measurements.

I will have a look at Barr report tomorrow.
 
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