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CO2 gaseous equilibrium with atmosphere

Hi all,
It does apply to CO2. The other forms of carbonate species, bicarbonate and carbonate, are determined in the equilibrated system by pH but the level of dissolved CO2 gas remains constant
@Andy Pierce , I think that is this bit <"Carbon Dioxide as an Acid">?
We don't actually know where the 3 ppm CO2 figure comes from.
I think this is the best we've got <"Estimating CO2 injection rates in ml per minute">? Again I have dim recollections that we might have a better, more recent, thread, but I can't find it.

cheers Darrel
 
Part of me suspects the 3 ppm equilibrium figure comes from wishful thinking on the part of CO2 injecting people (including me) for whom, if the 3 ppm figure were true, a simple 1 pH unit drop would represent a final concentration of 30 ppm CO2, which is a commonly taken as the "to be achieved" concentration that best balances improved plant growth with no appreciable threat to livestock. I don't know what the science behind this 30 ppm aspriational value is or where that figure came from either. ;)

With an equilibrium concentration of 0.5 ppm, a CO2 injecting user will need a pH drop of slightly less than 1.8 pH units to get to 30 ppm CO2. A 1.8 unit drop isn't as easy to remember as 1.0 and also maybe sounds a little scary, but there we are.
 
There is also the issue with people not noticing a significant discrepancy between the 1 pH drop and the drop checker readings. It would probably be easy to notice if there was a 6x error in the 1 pH drop technique.

And since there doesn't seem to be a definitive way of measuring CO2 in our tanks, we can assume that the 30ppm figure was obtained by one of these techniques. Even if it really isn't 30ppm, we are getting the same unknown concentration as the people who found an apparent sweet spot in the CO2 concentration.
 
It seems so trivial to test the equilibrium values. All you need is bicarbonate-buffered water and a good pH meter.
I set up a small experiment two days ago. Maybe the results are not too surprising, but still interesting.
So I set up two jars with water having dKH values of 10. I prepared the solution by dissolving 3g sodium bicarbonate in 500 ml RO water (resulting in 200 dKH, or 6g/l) and diluted it 20x (950 ml of RO water + 50 ml solution) to get 10 dKH (300 mg/l).

CO2.gif


The right one has a small pump, which only ran for a few hours initially, but then it has been on for the last 12 hours. I planned to measure the pH every 30 minutes, but because of unforeseen events, I did not, and even the pump was turned off after a few hours. Then last evening, I turned on it again, and I measured the following pH values:

Starting pH values were ~ 7.40, which gives a CO2 value of ~11.9 ppm.

30 minutes:
left jar: pH 7.48 (9.9 ppm CO2)
right jar: pH 7.93 (3.5 ppm CO2)

24 h:
left jar: pH 8.05 (2.7 ppm CO2)
right jar: pH 8.37 (1.3 ppm CO2)

36 h:
left jar: pH 8.11 (2.3 ppm CO2)
right jar: pH 8.42 (1.1 ppm CO2)

I'll leave it for one more day and see what levels we go to.
From this, we can say that the lower the CO2 level is, the slower the gas exchange between water and air will be. Not a colossal surprise, but I didn't think the process was so slow.

Fick's law describes the diffusion rate, and one of the determining factors is the partial pressure difference between the two compartments. In the air, the partial pressure (pCO2) is around 0.0004 atm or 0.3 mmHg. If we take 0.5 ppm as the equilibrated CO2 concentration in water, my initial value of 11.9 ppm gives around 7 mmHg pCO2 in my tap water (from which the RO was produced). So I started with 6.7 mmHg driving force for gas exchange, which dropped in the left jar to 2.7 - 0.3 = 2.4 after 24h. In the same jar, it dropped 2 ppm in the first 30 minutes but only 0.4 ppm in the last 12 hours. It is not quite linearly proportional to the drop in the pCO2 difference. I think what complicates the situation here is the depth of the water column and that pCO2 is not equally distributed in the jar; probably, there is a gradient from bottom to top. The pCO2 gradient also drives the CO2 diffusion across the column. Still, I lack the mathematical skills to calculate how depth influences the gradient (and thus the degassing of the water) at different pCO2 levels.

One thing that can affect the results is that I had the jars in my house in the living room. With a quick search, google tells me that the CO2 range inside the house could be between 350 and 1000 ppm (because we produce CO2), so it might be that my right jar is very close to the equilibrium. I guess I will find it out my living room's CO2 levels after I get my samples closer to equilibration.

Anyways, I think the take-home message here could be that equilibration with air, especially if one is not moving the water, can be a slow process at low CO2 levels. One could wrongly conclude that the equilibrated values are around 3 ppm if leaves the water exposed to the air for only a day without agitation. I have made this mistake myself.

In an aquarium, degassing the produced CO2 might also be challenging at low CO2 levels, so it makes sense that the experienced concentrations in low-tech tanks indeed lay around 2-4 ppm.
 
Hi all,
This is an interesting experiment and you have ended up pretty close to the theoretical equilibrium values.
Anyways, I think the take-home message here could be that equilibration with air, especially if one is not moving the water, can be a slow process at low CO2 levels.
co2-gif.gif
I think you might have to take <"oxygen saturation into account as well">. If you get above 100% oxygen saturation it will <"cause the pH to rise">. You might also have more <"evaporative cooling"> in the pot with the air-stone.

Because you don't have any Chemical / Biochemical Oxygen Demand (C / BOD) (any oxidisable material) the left hand static pot should <"eventually end up with"> 100% dissolved oxygen saturation and the same for CO2.

The values for dissolved gases are going to be dependent on atmospheric pressure and temperature. <"Standard conditions for temperature and pressure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia">
With a quick search, google tells me that the CO2 range inside the house could be between 350 and 1000 ppm (because we produce CO2), so it might be that my right jar is very close to the equilibrium
We have a CO2 monitor in the lab. and I'd guess that 600 ppm (mg / L) CO2 would be about right. It will definitely be at least 423 ppm CO2, because that is the <"level that the atmosphere has reached">.

cheers Darrel
 
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Hi all,
We have a sticky <"Some handy facts about water">, but 1dKH = 21.8 ppm HCO3-.
I generally see these listed in CaCO3 equivalents (1 dKH = 17.86 ppm CaCO3) and haven't been able to find a straight answer on how that relates to HCO3 levels.
You are in for a treat, all explained here: <"Spotless water...help me understand"> details in Larry Frank's Krib article <"Water Hardness">, abstacted below.
...... 1 dGH is defined as 10mg/lit CaO this can be related to ppm of CaCO3 as in above. Now the definition for dKH must have come from the amount of carbonate in 17.86 ppm CaCO3 which has nothing to do with GH which is defined by CaO! Historically GH must have been defined first in terms of CaO; hardness in terms of ppm CaCO3 second, then KH third?

1dKH = 17.86 ppm CaCO3

From above; 1dKH = 17.8575 mg/liter CaCO3. 7.143 mg/liter of this is Ca, the rest ;(17.8575-7.143)= 10.7145mg/liter CO3

1dKH = 10.7145 ppm CO3

For bicarbonate:

CaCO3 forms Ca(HCO3)2 in water at pH less than 10.25 . (Two bicarbonates are formed from each carbonate ion):

CaCO3 + H20 + CO2 ---> Ca(HCO3)2

CO3 mw = 60
HCO3 mw = 61

Therefore 10.7145mg/liter CO3 from CaCO3 (each CO3 carbonate anion forms two HCO3 bicarbonate anions; 61/60*2 *10.7=21.8 mg/liter HCO3

Another way to calculate this is using molarity:

1dKH = 17.86 mg/liter CaCO3
mw CaCO3 = 100

17.86 mg/liter CaCO3 = .179 m Mole CaCO3

This will form 2* .179 m Mole = .358 m Mole
Multipling moles *mw will give mg:
0.358*61(mwHCO3) = 21.8 mg/liter HCO3

1dKH = 21.8 ppm HCO3.........

cheers Darrel
 
Great experiment! How are you calculating the dKH values? I generally see these listed in CaCO3 equivalents (1 dKH = 17.86 ppm CaCO3) and haven't been able to find a straight answer on how that relates to HCO3 levels.
I just used what I found on Wikipedia (120 mg/l NaHCO3 equals 4 dKH) and did not check the calculation myself. If I remember correctly, I have seen the same value here or on the barrreport (30 mg/l equals 1KH).

I think you might have to take <"oxygen saturation into account as well">. If you get above 100% oxygen saturation it will <"cause the pH to rise">.
I believe O2 itself should not change the pH. In the quoted paper (Extreme diel dissolved oxygen and carbon cycles in shallow vegetated lakes), they do measurements in vegetated lakes, where photosynthesis produces parallel oxygen accumulation and CO2 depletion (the latter makes the pH rise). This makes the O2 swings correlate with pH, but I don't think there is a causative connection.

You might also have more evaporative cooling in the pot with the air-stone.
The values for dissolved gases are going to be dependent on atmospheric pressure and temperature.
That is true. I neglected temperature/altitude; I just used the CO2 calculator on this site. The altitude of my place is ~100 m above sea level, so the atmospheric pressure should be around 1 atm, so the CO2 partial pressure value should be good. The temperature was 20.5 °C at the start, but probably raised during the experiment to around room temperature / 23 °C. The one with the pump could either be cooler due to the evaporation or warmer because of the submerged electric pump. I will need to check it. The pH meter has a built-in thermometer, so that should not be a problem. I think there are calculators which take temperature too as a parameter.
 
Hi all,
I believe O2 itself should not change the pH. In the quoted paper (Extreme diel dissolved oxygen and carbon cycles in shallow vegetated lakes), they do measurements in vegetated lakes, where photosynthesis produces parallel oxygen accumulation and CO2 depletion (the latter makes the pH rise). This makes the O2 swings correlate with pH, but I don't think there is a causative connection.
I'll be honest, I don't actually know, I know you <"get these extreme diel pH swings"> in vegetated water, but I don't know how much is a CO2 effect and how much an oxygen one*.
I had an interesting one today. I won't tell you the location, or context, but it was a pond and the water sample had a dissolved oxygen level of 180% (~20oC, 18mg/L DO) and a pH value of pH 10.5.
I'll try and find a reference that quantifies the effects of oxygen accumulation on pH. I'm pretty sure there are some from waste water treatment and / or aquaculture.
The one with the pump could either be cooler due to the evaporation or warmer because of the submerged electric pump. I will need to check it. The pH meter has a built-in thermometer, so that should not be a problem.
The potential issue would be the change in gas solubility with temperature, so you would just need the two cups to be at the same temperature.

*Edit: You are right, the level of dissolved oxygen doesn't directly effect pH, it is a CO2 depletion effect.

cheers Darrel
 
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Hi all,
I believe O2 itself should not change the pH. In the quoted paper (Extreme diel dissolved oxygen and carbon cycles in shallow vegetated lakes), they do measurements in vegetated lakes, where photosynthesis produces parallel oxygen accumulation and CO2 depletion (the latter makes the pH rise). This makes the O2 swings correlate with pH, but I don't think there is a causative connection.
I've checked and you are right, there is <"no direct effect on pH of elevated DO levels">. I should have realised that from high tech aquariums, (with added CO2), if oxygen affected the pH level you would need to continually add more CO2 as the oxygen level (from photosynthesis) rose.

No CO2 depletion = no rise in pH.

cheers Darrel
 
At some point I tried reaching a KH value in my shrimp tank and the bicarbonate math never agreed with what the test kit gave me... My guess was that the test kit was wrong, but I never found out for sure.
 
One thing that can affect the results is that I had the jars in my house in the living room. With a quick search, google tells me that the CO2 range inside the house could be between 350 and 1000 ppm (because we produce CO2), so it might be that my right jar is very close to the equilibrium. I guess I will find it out my living room's CO2 levels after I get my samples closer to equilibration.
Water temperature plays into this as well. What temperature did the water reach?


Never mind, just saw 20.5 - 23 C.

Great experiment and great insights btw! Thanks for doing this.




Cheers,
Michael
 
At some point I tried reaching a KH value in my shrimp tank and the bicarbonate math never agreed with what the test kit gave me... My guess was that the test kit was wrong, but I never found out for sure.
I tested the solution myself with a KH test, which gave me 13 instead 10 ... I did not use an analytical scale, so my measurements might not be 100% accurate, but I can't imagine it being 30% off. I think too that it is the test which was wrong.

You might also have more <"evaporative cooling"> in the pot with the air-stone.
Water temperature plays into this as well. What temperature did the water reach?

I checked the temperature in the right jar, and it was actually increased to 28 °C. This is because I used a small 3W pump instead, not an air-stone, which heats the water. In the other jar, the temp was 23°C. But there was also some evaporation, as Darrel said:
evaporation.jpg

I turned off the pump and waited a few hours, and took the last measurements after it had cooled down almost to the same as the left one:
48 h:
left jar: pH 8.24 / 23.0 °C (1.7 ppm CO2)
right jar: pH 8.55 / 24.0 °C (0.8 ppm CO2)

It might need some temperature correction; I don't know what temperature the calculator calculates with.
I'll stop the experiment now, I won't be home for a few days, but I plan to repeat it with better time resolution and temperature control.

Hi hax,
TYVM for the experiment. Very interesting.
I'm glad you liked it. Once measured, the results seem logical, but I think seeing them for ourselves still helps. I was convinced that the 3 ppm was the equilibrated concentration, but I am glad I am here, and Andy's previous comment made me try it for myself.

Cheers,
Gabor
 

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Well for funzies I picked up a CO2 (in air) monitor. In the living room over the Shrimphaus we're at 600 ppm CO2 which at 25C would give an equilibrium level of 0.9 ppm at 25C, or 1.0 at 20C. At 30C CO2 in water equilibrium is 0.8 ppm so in general it looks like @hax47 has experimental data matching theory really well!
 
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