capping dirt suitable for blue rams

[EnderUK]

Hello

I'm going to redo my roma125 tank next weekend, made too many mistakes so just going to start over. I currently have a very fine silver sand cap on which I want to replace.

Soil I'm going to be using is going to be some of the original dirt that's in the tank topped up with some fresh aquasoil. I have some earthen red clay and some crushed oyster shells as a sub layer.

Now I got a 20kg bag of alpine grit from the garden center which I was going to use as a cap, it's about 3-6mm coarse but I'm thinking this will be to large now for the rams and the five banded barbs which like to shift through the sand.

Now being stuck with public transport and being at work 5 days a week I can't get hold of pool filter sand so I have a few options.

1) Get some argos play sand (how big a grain size is this? how does it compare to silver sand? what's the recommended cap size without causing compression, how is it for keeping stem plants stuck into it?).

2) spend £30 and get some black sand from pets at home (this looks to be about 0.5-1mm size) or some 2-3mm black gravel. This might a to big for the rams I don't know. It also seems to be resin coated which I'm not thrilled about.

3) Thin cap of silver sand again (had problem with keeping the plants down in this, there seems to be dark pockets forming in the current sand, not really wanting to us silver sand again).

I was leaning towards the argos play sand at the front and one side with the apline grit at the back kinda best of both worlds.

Any ideas I don't mind spending the £30 black sand if that's the best option. Thanks for the input.

 

[Michael W]

In my opinion i wouldn't use a soil under layer with rams. I have kept a lot of them before and I find that in my case they love to make depressions in the sand to breed. I had provided upturned pots, coconut caves yet they chose to dig a well shape in the sand to spawn which may prove to be problematic if you have a soil under layer.

I highly suggest you use some sort of fine sand, I can't make a recommendation as the sand I have was inherited from an ex fishkeeper a while back. The reason for fine sand which I'm sure you will be aware of is due to their sifting behaviour due to being micro geophagus - an earth eater. They will sift through mouthful of sand to find fallen food.

I've heard of many people using play sand for their aquariums but I'm not sure how well they will be for Rams as I have never used them before so someone with more knowledge with that should have a better input than me. I have sand about 2 inch in my 80L with my pair of A. Agassizi without problem for my stem plants which are rotala rotundifolia and ludwigia repens.

Michael.

 

[EnderUK]

So I thought a little about it and I have a plan sort of a 50:50 tank.
I put a 0.5" layer of dirt/clay/shell/gravel mix on the bottom, I then put a layer of sand on one side maybe 0.75" deep. On this side I'll have the Anubias, Java ferns dwarf hair grass and a place for the fish to dig. I figured the bottom layer will provide some neutriants while being tough Enough to stop the rams digging to deep.

The second half will have dirt layered up another half inch with and inch of alpine grit cap. Here I'll put my swords and crypts

Do you think that will work?

 

[Michael W]

Sounds like a plant, although you may want to let the hair grass grow in a bit before adding the rams, even then they risk being uprooted but the chances are lower. I still feel the cap is not big enough, I dare say my rams nearly dug right down to the glass and the sand was at least 1" deep.

This is just my opinion from experience, of course not every ram will behave the same but regardless, if your having a dirted tank I feel sand is an unreliable cap. Have you considered having an all sand substrate and use EI ferts from one of our forum sponsors, they are cheap in the long run especially if your running a low tech tank.This way you can have the ferts and feel more comfortable with the ram's digging abilities without being scared of dirt coming up.

 

[EnderUK]

Once it's settle for a month I'll be EI dosing at a low level to suppliment the heavy root feeding. I'm going to try and find others sources in the area. Trying the get the same around 0.5-1.0mm do you think that will be fine enough for the rams?. Argos play sand is around 0.125-0.35mm according to the source. If I can get the coarser sand I'll beef the cap up to 1-1.5" thick which I think should be enough. At least if I do this 50:50 it will keep the cost down a little. Thanks for your input.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

some crushed oyster shells as a sub layer.

Don't add any shell, Rams like really soft water.

it's about 3-6mm coarse but I'm thinking this will be to large now for the rams and the five banded barbs which like to shift through the sand.

I think it is too coarse, "like MichaelW" says they are geophagine cichlids.

Get some argos play sand (how big a grain size is this?

Argos play sand is very fine grain, but I've used it successfully. I use 100% sand with a small amount of leaf litter added for Apistogramma etc., and just feed the plants via the "Duckweed index" <Low maintainence, long term sustrate | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel

 

[EnderUK]

My water is a little too soft (for a community tank) at KH2.8 and GH4.48. I'm getting huge swings on pH when I add co2 with the KH so low going from 7.2 no co2 down to around 5 if I turn the air stone off. I've got it a little stable at 6.9 by running the co2 at 2 bubbles a second and running the air stone 24/7. This is why I wanted to add the shells to the substrate and maybe a tea spoon to the filter to get the KH to around 3.0-3.5.

Funny thing is the drop checker with 4dk solution stays a dark green no matter what I do.

The lighting had been modified and I'm running 2x28w t5s rather than the original 2x20 t8 so my light is probably leaning towards medium lighting which I run 6 hours a day.

I haven't had any algae problems the ghost shrimp and the otos seem to take care of what does grow. I do have 4 large idian almond leaves in the back of the tank.

 

[roadmaster]

Hi all, Don't add any shell, Rams like really soft water. I think it is too coarse, "like MichaelW" says they are geophagine cichlids. Argos play sand is very fine grain, but I've used it successfully. I use 100% sand with a small amount of leaf litter added for Apistogramma etc., and just feed the plants via the "Duckweed index" <Low maintainence, long term sustrate | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel

+one.
Accidentally hit "unlike" button when I meant to hit "like".
Have kept the microgeophagus blue ram's in near straight R/O with tiny amount of my tapwater.
Would not worry bout how soft my water is with this particular species.

 

[EnderUK]

Okay so I will leave off the shells and simply try to throttle the co2 right down. If it gets out of hand I stick to what I'm doing with the airstone. I've read the duckweed index I do have salvinia Natans which I guess will do the same thing. I'm not really that worried about the dirt coming up that much I'm more worried that the 1" of play sand would suffocate the soil. But I guess I can live with having just sand in half the tank I'll still try to get coarser stuff but I'll use play sand it that's all I can get.

I know you guys are saying that it would be better without the soil but I love the outcome of current tank and I do like the look of it on the glass were other people hide it. I like the fact that I don't have to clean the bottom I just let the soil take care of the mess. I have pulled out plants and moved them and it really isn't that bad and usually settles over night after a big water change. I don't mind my tank looking a little messy and wild which is why I like the dirt and don't want to get rid of it completely. Even the sand will have some pebbles dashed on top so there's a bit of chaos.

Here's the plan with the yellow being 1" of sand no dirt with the right hatching being the gravel capped dirt. As suggested I'll probably put one or two leaves on the sand and see how it looks/spaces. I might put the dwarf hair grass around the sand/gravel boarder so it can still get some neutriants from the soil.

I am taking your advice on board guys you've been very helpful cheers. Any further input is much appriated.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My water is a little too soft (for a community tank) at KH2.8 and GH4.48. I'm getting huge swings on pH when I add co2 with the KH so low going from 7.2 no co2 down to around 5 if I turn the air stone off. I've got it a little stable at 6.9 by running the........

I know this going to sound a little strange, but you can just ignore the tank water pH. The problem is that pH can't be stable in soft water, where small changes in water chemistry cause large changes in pH. This is the exact opposite of the situation in hard buffered water like the sea, or lake Tanganyika, where small changes in pH indicate huge changes in water chemistry.

When you add CO2 you depress the pH by altering the HCO3- ~ CO2 equilibrium. Because you continually add CO2, the proportion of dissolved CO2 that changes to H2CO3 remains much higher than it would be if you weren't continually adding CO2, and this then depresses the pH. When you stop adding CO2, H2CO3 levels return to equilibrium and the pH rises. You haven't changed the alkalinity or water chemistry.

When you add aeration, the added oxygen will raise the pH, because O2 is the base in O-H.

Funny thing is the drop checker with 4dk solution stays a dark green no matter what I do.

This is because you aren't actually adding much CO2 to the water, it is largely being gassed off by the large gas exchange surface from the air stone. The relationship between CO2/pH/dKH has been defined experimentally and the drop checker contains bromothymol blue (a narrow range pH indicator) and 4dKH solutionso that you can use the colour change (pH drop) to estimate your CO2 level. Chart is in this post <ph readings, dropchecker always green and aquasoil... any relationship? | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

I've read the duckweed index I do have salvinia Natans which I guess will do the same thing

Yes it will, I usually use Limnobium (Amazon Frogbit) because it doesn't have hairy leaves which makes assessing colour easier, but any floater will do.

like the fact that I don't have to clean the bottom I just let the soil take care of the mess. I have pulled out plants and moved them and it really isn't that bad and usually settles over night after a big water change. I don't mind my tank looking a little messy and wild which is why I like the dirt and don't want to get rid of it completely. Even the sand will have some pebbles dashed on top so there's a bit of chaos.

Thats good, the issue is purely cosmetic and it doesn't bother me either. t think your Rams will appreciate the wild look.

cheers Darrel

 

[EnderUK]

I was going to ask some questions about the co2 but I'll probably move that to the co2 section after reading the link. Thanks again folks I'll probably make a log and post up some pictures in the correct section as well.