Amano and Cherry Shrimp keep dying!

[jaypeecee]

Hi Everyone,

Why would pH fall at night? If anything it will rise, as CO₂ (injected during the photoperiod) is out-gassed.

pH will almost certainly fall at night because:

CO2 = 0.5 BPS 21 hrs

Please note the 21 hrs.

Elliott should switch to a water conditioner that binds heavy metals, such as Seachem Prime

That has already been suggested:

Some tap water conditioners, e.g. Seachem Prime should neutralize this copper

He doesn’t need to keep his pH above 7.0 - that will be largely impossible if he’s injecting enough CO₂ to keep his plants happy.

At the end of the day, @Elliott_Fordham may have to make some compromises. Elliott could, for example, reduce the lighting intensity and this will then require less CO2 to be injected.

Decisions, decisions.

JPC

 

[Elliott_Fordham]

Hi all

I appreciate all the advice on what I should do. I feel some of the topics mentioned are highly debatable and could be argued at length however I believe we should not attack other peoples opinions to harshly whether we agree with them or not. I have reduced my CO2 down to the photoperiod and got the drop checker to stabilise at a green colour for all hours. I will test the copper and provide an update on the forum. For now I will try and mitigate the addition of copper to the aquarium by 1. running the tap for a period of time before collecting the water and 2. adding sufficient water conditioner to the water added to my aquarium. I will monitor my remaining shrimp closely and to respond to @jaypeecee I can't dim the light on the aquarium unless I purchase a dimmer attachment.

Thanks
Elliott

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Elliott_Fordham

Thanks for your feedback. We have offered a few ideas. I'm sure we all wish you success.

Please keep us updated.

JPC

 

[Siege]

A couple of other suggestions -

- stop feeding the shrimp. They will do their job and find their own food.

- reduce fish feeding to perhaps every other day for a bit.

- it is a small tank so do a large water change and blast the substrate with a turkey baster. Refill and do it again.

Bearing in mind it’s the shrimp popping their clogs and not the fish there maybe a build up of waste in the substrate from over feeding. Have seen it a couple of times where shrimp are over fed.

ps. You shouldn’t need co2 on for that duration in such a small tank.

 

[tiger15]

If you do 50% WC twice a week, and the shrimp are dying, it's a telltale sign your tap water contains excessive heavy metals. Most metals originate from your home plumbing, less likely from your water source so your water provider test reports can be misleading. Copper is the most likely suspect due to copper piping in many home plumbing. Zinc is a second likely suspect, because zinc alloy solders (zinc-tin-lead, zinc-cadmium, and zinc-tin-copper) are used commonly to join pipes ever since lead solder was banned in US (likely in UK too ) in the 80s. Dianne Walstad reported in her book that she couldn't keep shrimp alive in her tap water due to zinc. pH and hardness also affect the toxicity and leachate of metals from your plumbing. Your 24-hr CO2 injection does not help as low pH brings out more dissolved phase metals.

I don't know whether Prime can permanently bind metals or just temporarily as low pH may break the binding. Serious shrimp keepers use RO remineralized water or peat filtered tap water to keep Caridina shrimp which need low pH water that makes metals 10x more toxic.

I have copper plumbing and zinc solder in my house and don't take the chance. I do 50% WC in my Neocaridina shrimp tanks every couple week, but I don't use tap water directly for replacement, but water drawn from my big planted tank in which plants are effective filter of heavy metals

 

[Sammy I]

It could just be the co2 and lack of oxygen? Being on for 21hours is excessive, especially when the lights are off. Way lower oxygen levels, no co2 is being used, but more co2 is being added from the plants. Plus the shrimp are probably more active at night so use more oxygen?

I would:
1) reduce co2 duration, on 2 hours before lights on and off 1 hour before lights out.
2) increase oxygen/aeration

 

[Elliott_Fordham]

Hi All

Would just like to update you on my situation. I bought a John's copper check test kit and used it on my tap water and tank water after sadly my last cherry shrimp died (again after a water change). The test came back completely negative (pic below). So it can't be the amount of copper in my water that is killing my shrimp. Is there any other suggestions as to what it could be? Could it be a disease that is sticking around in my tank? My shrimp look healthy before they unexpectedly die? could it be a slight difference in water temperature between the new water and the tank water. Usually there is about a 1 degree difference in water temp. Could it be something to do with the fluctuation in pH as I inject CO2 now for 7 hrs during the photoperiod and my drop checker goes from blue to green throughout the day and then is blue by the morning. Do any types of algae kill shrimp? This could be the issue however it doesn't align with the water changes. Could the bucket I use for water changes be leaking shrimp toxic substances into the water? Anyway if anyone has any ideas or answers to the possible scenarios I have just mentioned please let me know.

Many Thanks
Elliott

 

[91]

ok so my guess would be a lack of calcium.
The water changes can trigger shedding. Lack of calcium and other minerals can lead to deaths during shedding.
But i could be wrong your water maybe hard as rock.

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Elliott_Fordham

Just homing in on the three pieces of information below:

I bought a John's copper check test kit and used it on my tap water and tank water after sadly my last cherry shrimp died (again after a water change). The test came back completely negative (pic below). So it can't be the amount of copper in my water that is killing my shrimp.

Could it be something to do with the fluctuation in pH as I inject CO2 now for 7 hrs during the photoperiod and my drop checker goes from blue to green throughout the day and then is blue by the morning.

"In alkaline water (high pH), copper ions bind to calcium carbonate (KH). Therefore, the amount of free copper ions in the water decreases. However, if the pH drops, the poisonous copper ions will be released again".

When you did the copper test an hour or so ago, what was the pH of the tank water? I just want to be sure that copper isn't the problem. It now looks unlikely but the pH reading may decide it. Is the water acidic (pH less than 7.0) or is it alkaline (pH greater than 7.0)?

JPC

 

[sparkyweasel]

Could the bucket I use for water changes be leaking shrimp toxic substances into the water?

That is possible, but quite unlikely. You can eliminate the possibility by getting a brewing bucket and using it exclusively for aquarium purposes.
You could test your bucket (current or new) and your conditioned tapwater by filling the bucket with tapwater, adding conditioner, and adding some daphnia or cyclops. As they are crustaceans like shrimps, if they survive it's very unlikely that anything in the water, conditioner or bucket is toxic to shrimps.
It would narrow down the search for the root of the problem.
hth

 

[jaypeecee]

You could test your bucket (current or new) and your conditioned tapwater by filling the bucket with tapwater, adding conditioner, and adding some daphnia or cyclops. As they are crustaceans like shrimps, if they survive it's very unlikely that anything in the water, conditioner or bucket is toxic to shrimps.

Hi @sparkyweasel

What a good idea! I presume that's something you've tried? I seem to recall that Daphnia are very sensitive to the heavy metals.

JPC

 

[sparkyweasel]

Fortunately my tapwater doesn't give me any concerns. But I use the same principle for testing hardscape if I'm not sure about it's safety, such as; unknown rocks especially ones with veins, found wood, sand that wasn't sold for aquarium use, and anything synthetic. After a week in the bucket, if the daphnia are still OK and the pH and TDS haven't changed drastically I'm happy to use the hardscape.
The daphnia, cyclops etc. come from my rainwater butts, where they would also show me if anything had contaminated the water.
Of course, they are also good, free fishfood. 🙂

 

[Elliott_Fordham]

Hi @milla

I could measure my calcium in the tank however my water is medium to hard in my region so I doubt that would be the reason. My aquarium is heavily planted however which may cause the calcium in the water column to be used up.

Hi @jaypeecee

When I tested the water my pH was at 6.5 in the aquarium and 7.4 in the water from the tap and both results were negative so I doubt the pH is having an effect on the coordination (binding) of the carbonate to the copper ions.

Hi @sparkyweasel

The daphnia test sounds like a good idea and the bucket is used exclusively for my aquarium water.

Thank you all for the advice

 

[Simon Cole]

Two ideas.
1. I find that certain fish will attack shrimp and devour them when you least expect it.
2. The role of agricultural pollutants cannot be overlooked. Many farmers will use pesticides at this time of year. I observed one water company third party assessment where they had over 1000 water quality breaches each year - and that was simple water chemistry. Pesticides are far harder to determine. You need to start sending samples to a professional lab. Its not going to cost that much more than the cost of your fish to get definitive answers, then you can look into disease - e.g. flatworms.
3. There are some good points above. For example, if you look at phosphate loading, then you may find that it is the primary mechanism causing copper ions to be released due to a pH change affecting the CEC. Thus getting a good run of water tests would help, because if it is an inorganic problem, then few ions interact on their own. I suspect that phosphate toxicity is another place to look for answers.
...good old activated carbon could help. ...talk to water company if you are drinking the same water would be safest.