Alternanthera Cardinalis Help Needed...

[Jason Blake]

Hi,

I am trying to grow some Alternanthera Cardinalis but it is struggling. Nearly all of the bottom leaves have completely melted away. The stems also look like they are melting too. The leaves nearer the top most appear to have some melting around the edges as well as holes. Here are some pics









I know that this is going to be blamed on CO2 and probably more so about the flow a distribution in my aquarium. This is where I seem to be becoming unstuck. The reasons being that my Drop checker is limade green at lights on and goes almost yellow during the day (No livestock as yet). It was my belief that the sign of good flow was the plants waving gently in the breeze, which they all do. So I am really struggling to work out where my problem lays. Below is a bried video of, focusing mainly on the area of the Cardinalis as this seems to be the only plant showing any problems. All other plants seem to be doing vey well especially the Heteranthera Zosterfolia, that has gone bizerk. So much for Tropica grading this as a plant for the apprentice!



Here are some stats that I hope will help provide an answer.

CO2 on at 09:00 Off at 17:00
CO2 Infusion = UP Inline Diffuser
Lights on at 12:00 off at 18:00
Lights = 1 x PL 11w Compact Flourescent
EI dosing = Macro 3 x a week, Micro 3 x a week, One day of Rest. One x 50% water change
Tank = 60 Litre Hexagon - 50cm Tall x 38 Wide
Filtration = 1000 LPH

I would really appreciate any construction comments.

Thanks.

 

[Bhu]

Says video is private...

But yes I'm sure the experts will point out co2 and distribution of as main cure and light as the main fault. But your light sounds really gentle. I may be wrong! Do you have any par values for it or a ph range through the day to match the times you switch on and off. That will give a better idea of co2 through out the day as well. Where is your drop checker located? Wish I could see the video 🙂 I've just had similar with a crypt. It has stabilised now after loosing about 10 large leaves. This might help as loads of info on how plants work is linked from here...
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/help-device-needed.34811/ Sorry about thread title my iPad was having an auto correct moment lol

 

[Jason Blake]

Hi BHU,

Thanks for the reply.

I think I have now sorted the video privacy settings now so hopefully the video can be seen.

I have no pH readings as I took Clive's advice about no testing.

I have been unsuccesful in trying to locate PAR readings for my light. PAR readings seem to be very hard to find.

The Drop checker is about 10 cm of the substrate and is located in the same area as the Cardinalis. I was hoping that this may just have been an adjustment period but it has been planted now for 4 weeks going on for 5 weeks now.

Thanks

 

[parotet]

Hi all

I also noticed that my Alternanthera reinickii purple was struggling in the rear of the tank. I guess there were two problems, not sure which one was more important: it was shaded by another plant and the flow blocked by another one. It has been changed to a brighter position and with a bit more flow and it seems to work.


Jordi

 

[Bhu]

Hi BHU

I have no pH readings as I took Clive's advice about no testing.

Rotfwl 😉

Ok seen the video now. That's a nice gentle even flow.

I'm curious how long have you had the plant? Has it shown any signs of growth before melt? Grown loads then got melt? The colour looks ok apart from melt so the light should be ok for it. I have the alternanthera rosaefolia and it's grown huge and amazing. The leaves long and very colourful. I did have one moment with it where leaves started to get holes at random around the whole plant. Basically it was eating itself as I wasn't adding enough feed...

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/alternanthera-rosaefolia.34672/

That plant is doing really well now so don't give up!

 

[ceg4048]

I know that this is going to be blamed on CO2 and probably more so about the flow a distribution in my aquarium.

Correct.

I have no pH readings as I took Clive's advice about no testing.

The advice was not to test for nutrients. Your DC is a test kit and it does not measure nutrients.
The non-nutrient test kits such as KH/GH/ph can be outsmarted to give you useful data if you understand what they measure.
See http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/carpet-plant-and-mid-ground-plants-melting-kindly-advice.34009/

Cheers,

 

[Jason Blake]

Hi Clive,

Thanks for the reply

I have read the thread you posted on your reply.

I think I am missing your point, for which I apologise. Are you suggesting that I should invest in some testing kits/equiment? Mainly GH/KH and pH tests? I am assuming that we are trying to find out the pH drop to fine tune the CO2 injection? I am also guessing that we need to know what the GH/KH is to determine what the pH drop should be as these factors affect the amount the pH will drop with CO2 injection? Please be gentle I am just trying to understand it!

Should I be doing anything else right now? I have just increased the CO2 substantially, drop checker is now yellow. as mentioned I have no live stock at the moment. Should I be reducing the the lighting period further? Should I now be removing the affected parts of the plants? From that thread it is my understanding that there is no hope of these affected sections recovering and my efforts should be based on preventing this problem progressing and rectifying its cause.

You mention that if you understand what the GH/KH and pH tests actually measure you can outsmart the kits and they will then provide useful data, would you mind just explaining that a litle bit as I am not too sure what you mean exactly?

Thank you, I appreciate your help.

P.S. If you are suggesting I invest in the testing equipment, could you be so kind as to recommned a good GH/KH test kit? From what I have read you seem to recommend the Hanna pH test pens I know they are a little costly but I have found a brand new one on ebay going very cheap, thanks to them being unable to spell!!

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Jason,
I love Hanna products and my favorite is their pH/temp/conductivity handheld meter, You can see a selection here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...ywords=hanna meter&sprefix=hanna+,electronics

The black one is the multimeter and they are expensive, but there are simpler less expensive versions. just browse the site for pH meters and I'm certain you'll find less expensive brands.

pH meters are just voltmeters because acids and bases are just solutions with dissolved ions which produce a voltage. That's why lead-acid batteries are filled with acid, for example. Your tank is just a weak battery, that's all and acids have a very distinct and predictable behavior. So pH test kits and pH pens are fine to use. This cannot be said of nutrient ions in solution because their behavior is much less predictable.

You mention that if you understand what the GH/KH and pH tests actually measure you can outsmart the kits and they will then provide useful data, would you mind just explaining that a litle bit as I am not too sure what you mean exactly?

Yes, that's easy. Although the behavior of acid in the water are predictable, well known, and consistent, their behavior is mitigated strongly by alkaline sources such as carbonate and bicarbonate. That's why, when you have an upset stomach, which produces a lot of stomach acid, swallowing a bicarbonate gives you relief. that's the origin of the brand name "Alka-Seltzer" (probably more well known in USA than in UK). "Alka" refers to alkalinity and so the bicarbonate (which has a negative electric charge) that you swallow, attracts and holds the acid Hydrogen ions (which have a positive charge). This essentially is considered a neutralization of the acid because when the H+ bonds to the HCO3- then the H+ cannot perform it's destructive behavior.

The amount of Carbonate and bicarbonate ions dissolved in the tank water neutralizes a certain amount of the acid, and so the concentration of those ions has come to be known as the Carbonate Hardness, the German word being Karbonate. the acronym is therefore KH instead of CH.

So there is a relationship between the amount of acid that can be measured in the water and the amount of carbonate/bicarbonate dissolved in the water. When KH is high it will neutralize a large amount of acid and so the pH will tend to be high and when the KH is low then the the pH will tend to be lower. Unfortunately, this becomes a little more complicated because there are other compounds in the water that are capable of neutralizing acid to some degree, perhaps not as effective. Compounds such as Nitrate and Phosphate, Silicate and some organic compounds being produced in the tank are all capable of acid neutralization and therefore they contribute to the total alkalinity. The KH test kit is incapable of distinguishing the difference between Carbonate/bicarbonate and the other alkaline components. So people measure the alkalinity of the tank with their KH test kit and assume that this is the level of carbonate/bicarbonate in the water without taking into account the fact that there may be other alkaline components in the tank. Then they apply this measure "KH" number to a pH/KH/CO2 table and conclude that they have a certain amount of CO2 in the water. The problem is that the pH number is corrupted by the many acids in the water and the KH is not a true KH. The result is ALWAYS that using the table in this manner guarantees that the calculated CO2 concentration will ALWAYS be artificially high. So they run around thinking they have 30ppm CO2 based on the table but yet they have a very low CO2 concentration because the numbers that they used are corrupted.

This is the classic example of how blindly following test kit numbers can destroy a tank when the hobbyist does not understand what the test kit is telling them. The number returned by the pH or KH test kit is usually fairly accurate, but you must interpret the numbers properly.

The same principle applies to TDS/Conductivity measurement. One has to understand what TDS is and what factors affect the reading so that when you see a number from your meter it will be within context. People worry about how nutrient powders have an effect on fish health because it drives the TDS upwards so they blindly adhere to some upper hard limit and often restrict the nutrient dosing which then results in a deficiency. However, pollution such as fish waste and food also dissolves in the water and also causes a TDS rise. The pollution results in Oxygen deficit so the correct action is to excercise restraint when feeding and to accomplish frequent water changes. So in this context, TDS rise associated with pollution is problematic, but TDS rise due to nutrient loading is not problematic.

Are you suggesting that I should invest in some testing kits/equiment? Mainly GH/KH and pH tests? I am assuming that we are trying to find out the pH drop to fine tune the CO2 injection?

Yes, that is correct. GH is not so necessary because that information can be gleaned from your local water report.

Should I be doing anything else right now? I have just increased the CO2 substantially, drop checker is now yellow. as mentioned I have no live stock at the moment.

It's more important to determine WHEN the DC is yellow. It's much better that this occurs very early in the photoperiod. If it happens in the second half of the photoperiod then that's too late. A pH profile check is instrumental for this and works a lot better than a DC for this purpose.

Should I now be removing the affected parts of the plants?

Yes. Leaves never recover from an algae attack and the algae sits there and pumps out more algal spores, which turn into more algal blooms.

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers,

 

[Jason Blake]

Hi Clive,

Thank you so much for the detailed and informative response I really appreciate the time you have spent replying.

Lady luck was with me I have just won an auction for the Hanna Combo PH/EC/TDS/TEMP pen for under £20! I love it when people make speilling mistakes in their titles it dramatically lowers the price especially when the auction finishes half way through the day. Just got to hope it works when it turns up of course, but it was labeled as "New other with no instructions" I bet the seller is kicking themselves now!

Anyway I am getting off track.

So when I am conducting the pH profile I presume its as straight forward as taking pH readings at regular timed intervals. Is there any preference on frequency is every hour enough or should the intervals be shorter?

Also as you seem to know your Hanna products, will this meter need to be calibrated as soon as I recieve it? Or will the factory calibration be sufficient for a little while? I understand that they should be calibrated every month at the very least.

Should I just get a KH test kit and forget the GH as you say I can get this from my water report?

Thanks again. I really appreciate the help.

 

[Jason Blake]

Hi Guys,

Well I finnaly got round to cleaning and getting rid of all the dead and rotting leaves today. I pulled out the cardinalis and got rid of anything that wasn't healthy. When I was doing this I also noticed that at the very bottom of the Lindernia right next door to the cardinalis and some of the reineckii also next to the cardinalis, all looked a bit unhealthy at their bottoms. More evidence I think of this dead spot is the fact that the Lindernia on the other side of the tank is growing perfectly. Their tops are absolutely fine and the Lindernia even appears to be growing new leaves quite profusely. So I am begining to wonder if perhaps I have actually got a dead sport in my flow, despite the all the plants moving. This area also happens to be behind the thickest part of the Manzanitia root in the tank, which maybe partly causing the dead spot.

Here are some pics to show where I think the dead spot is:



So is a powerhead pointed in the same direction as the filter spray bar on the left hand side of my tank going to rectify this problem? Without disturbing the flow I have already got that appears to be good everywhere else as everywhere else there is good plant growth. Another option that I am not sure will work or even if it is dooable is make the spraybar a "T." What I mean is right now due to tank and hardware restraints the filter outlet comes into the tank on the left hand side. but this does push the spray bar over to the right more than the left, which is the side of the dead spot. If I am able to, would it work if I was to put a small "t" junction into the spraybar that way the spraybar corners and hardware will not push the spraybar to one side. I would be able to have the spraybar across the whole tank. I am just not sure if I would have equal flow both sides of if there is a way to ensure this. Fluid dynamics is not my thing. I wish I could take a picture to show what I mean but they do not come out very well at all.

This is the best it comes out:



Thanks

 

[parotet]

Hi Jason

It looks that the plant is in a corner, isn't it? Tank corners are difficult areas for good flow and for light IMO. Actually what I try to do is avoiding very demanding plants in terms of light and flow (Co2) in these areas, as well as plants that block the flow to the midground. Not saying that there is no room for improvement (there is always, even when you think there is not... at least this is what it happens to me everytime 🙂) but if I were you I'd move this red plants (which is demanding and tall) to a better place and plant instead a low non-demanding plant. A few days ago I changed some of the plants in my tank and it is incredible how good they look despite being uprooted and planted again. I guess it is the difference between "the place plants like" and "the place you like for your plants".

Jordi

 

[ceg4048]

So when I am conducting the pH profile I presume its as straight forward as taking pH readings at regular timed intervals. Is there any preference on frequency is every hour enough or should the intervals be shorter

Yes, it is straight forward. Follow the example discussed in the link given in post #6 above.

will this meter need to be calibrated as soon as I recieve it?

Yes, immediately. This has nothing to do with it being Hanna and everything to do with the device being a pH probe. It should be a 2 point calibration at pH 4 and pH 7. Buy the calibration fluids and discard them on or before their expiration dates.

Should I just get a KH test kit and forget the GH as you say I can get this from my water report?

Correct!

Cheers,

 

[Jason Blake]

Hi, Guys,

Its been a while, I have been trying to get everything sorted and to run a pH profile. But I kept running into trouble.

Well I tried to do a profile last sunday but I ballsed this up by accidentaly calibrating my pH pen to my tank water! For those of you who are familar with the Hanna Combo pen if you hold the power button for too long it goes into the calibration mode, which is what I did without realising. A bit of an ergonomical desgin flaw maybe. But appart from that its an excellent piece of equipment. I was unable to carry out a re-calibration as I knocked the calibration solutions onto the floor during my first calibration! So I have had to wait for new stuff to arrive That is all here now and I do the profile tomorrow.

I have removed all the effected areas of the plants. The have unfortunately deteriorated somemore but at a much slower rate. I have added a 1000 lphr pump to try and get rid of a flow dead spot. I am not too sure if it is working or not. Since adding the pump some of the plants have still deteriorated a bit, but some of them actually really quite healthy and even have some new growth. I have again trimed everything back that looked to be effected.

I was just wondering will a stem with no leaves, survive and perhaps even regrow new leaves? If I remember rightly from my botanical science at school aren't the leaves like the powerhouse for the plant, so would it make sense that a stem with no leaves will be unable to photosynthesis and therefore won't be able to produce its own food and energy and therefore die?

I will hopefully be able to update tomorrow with a pH Profile.

Thanks

 

[Michael W]

Stems without leaves can come back you can be sure of that. Many who start stem plants emersed from a submerged environment will often strip the stem of its leaves in order to reduce the amount of water lost, this doesn't stop the stems from producing new leaves suited for the new environment.

 

[Jason Blake]

Well I managed to do the pH profile today and its below. Following the theme of getting things wrong! just after actually starting the profile I realised that during the tank relocation yesterday somehow the CO2 valve got turned down. The drop checker stayed a darker than normal green today. So I have carried on regardless and plan to do it again on Thursday.

I was only measuring the TDS as a matter of curiosity and how EI effects the TDS reading. I just want to see how much a weeks worth of EI Dosing changes the TDS level.



Any help on how I can rescue my cardinalis would be gratefully received. One of the leafless stems is starting to turn translucent. 🙁

So much for Cardinalis being an easy plant to care for.

Thanks.