Aftermath.

[Ady34]

Hi, It’s been a while.
After a three week golden spell with insane growth this tank took a turn for the worse and has suffered ever since. The balance went and it began dropping leaves and gaining algae. I’ve suffered green spot algae and bba. I have tried multiple avenues of natural treatment including extra water changes, filter cleaning, trimming, pulling and replanting, co2 optimisation, reduced lighting, changes of fertiliser, addition of remineralisation…..I was at the point of rescaping, but after about 2 months I am seeing some improvements and have decided to keep the scape running a little longer. I have also began an excel treatment. I am leaner dosing on a reduced lighting intensity and I think things are improving. The tank has had a nice big trim so we will see how it responds….fingers crossed, otherwise I have some lovely manzanita wood to do an NA scape 😉

@George Farmer was in the area doing a workshop at my local @Horizon Aquatics and popped over for a chat and run around of the scapes and issues faced. He has a YouTube video out if anyone wants to fill in a few minutes 🙂


Here it is after the trim….

In fact, all of my home scapes got a trim after the visit 🤣
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Wookii]

GSA aside, the scape looks great @Ady34 - I love those big bunches of Rotala Bonsai!

Have you tried boosting phosphate levels to at least 2-3ppm per week? There's a fairly well documented link between the two. I had an outbreak of GSA some time ago, until I realised I'd miscalculated my macro mix and included only 1/4 of the Potassium Phosphate that I should have done. I fixed that and it disappeared within a couple of weeks.

 

[MichaelJ]

Great tanks @Ady34 ! I love these videos! As @Wookii said, elevated phosphate levels helps a lot against GSA... I used to struggle with GSA myself especially on my Anubias until I started to keep my Phosphate constantly elevated at 10-15 ppm. and didn't change much else. Now, +10 ppm probably isn't necessary, but I haven't noticed any negative side-effects at all, and needless to say, I haven't seen any GSA since they went away...

Cheers,
Michael

 

[John q]

Brilliant tanks and a fantastic video.

Also think George is right suggesting you're being overly critical about the algae, it happens, shame more folk don't show what it takes to reach perfection. Good on you for being so honest.

 

[Geoffrey Rea]

I have just carried out a 90% water change and will do large water changes daily for the first week.

I had been running huge amounts of co2

The balance went and it began dropping leaves and gaining algae. I’ve suffered green spot algae and bba. I have tried multiple avenues of natural treatment including extra water changes, filter cleaning, trimming, pulling and replanting, co2 optimisation, reduced lighting, changes of fertiliser, addition of remineralisation…..

I have also began an excel treatment.

I am leaner dosing on a reduced lighting intensity

Hi @Ady34

The above comments stand out as critical turning points.

The comments below are just some things that stand out from this end. Obviously ignore anything not relevant, but maybe something in here might initiate some new thoughts on the journey of this setup:



It may seem like pedantry to suggest huge water changes daily for the first month regardless, but it offers leeway for the assemblage to settle with a means of daily export. In theory the load on the system then sits in a lower potential range for the first four weeks, rather than just the first week, as you are preventing amalgamative loading favouring certain types of bacteria. This should allow a longer period for replication of various bacterium at different rates, not just heterotrophs to deal with decay. All the meanwhile you’re removing the decay and ammonia in conjunction with your plants, whilst the buffering capacity of the aquarium soil settles ongoing. There is no balance to be found in the first month really, it’s full on warfare and change. The water changes just hit the reset button every 24 hours to install some equity. Even using cycled filters hasn’t led to trouble free startup’s here, but since using daily WC’s for a month, not one setup has had any major issues.

Huge Co2 input = nitrate and phosphate needed in balance. No balance, lots of melting. There was also changes to light intensity on top, again making hitting the needs of the system difficult.

Then a complex combination of interventions that change the requirements for the system.

Excel utilised making additional carbon available.

Finally, a change to lean dosing which presumes daily K and micros with a huge reliance on the substrate for mobile nutrients. Changing dosing regimes requires a settling in period, so feedback from your plants in the first week after the change isn’t representative of ongoing. It takes time for the plants to synthesise what they need under these new arrangements.

With lean water column dosing and rich substrate you can also drive the system too hard with Co2 much more readily, hence why you will see green drop checkers in all ADA tanks. Assume that this ‘stress’ you can witness tank wide (in ADA style tanks) if you overdo injection rate is due to competing metabolic mechanisms hitting a transportation limit. You’re relying on N and P from the substrate predominantly. It is an assumption as not qualified to know. But throughout this transition your plants still have to provide energy for many different metabolic processes whilst adapting. Consider the resulting glucose that it can muster whilst under duress and store inside the plant… If you then trim your plants in a period where adaptation is taking place, you cut off supplies needed for motility, cell division and biosynthetic reactions. A plant with a tuber is an exception to this. In short, trimming whilst changing dosing regimes doesn’t seem sensible.

Can see you’re striving for answers @Ady34 and nothing else will appease you. Same here and all the power to you bud. We want to know what happened so we can avoid it in the future. The good thing with tanks is the answers are usually staring at us, we just need to keep looking.

 

[Ady34]

GSA aside, the scape looks great @Ady34 - I love those big bunches of Rotala Bonsai!

Have you tried boosting phosphate levels to at least 2-3ppm per week? There's a fairly well documented link between the two. I had an outbreak of GSA some time ago, until I realised I'd miscalculated my macro mix and included only 1/4 of the Potassium Phosphate that I should have done. I fixed that and it disappeared within a couple of weeks.

Thanks @Wookii, I really like the rotala bonsai to.
I have altered my dosing regime and it now includes additional phosphate to see for that very reason.
The leaner dosing and more targeted fertilisation seem to have improved the situation and a few weeks in the gsa seems to have improved, bba is definitely not as keen and my Monte Carlo has responded slowly but positively to the trim. Overall the tank is much nicer and in-line with what I want 🙂

Great tanks @Ady34 ! I love these videos! As @Wookii said, elevated phosphate levels helps a lot against GSA... I used to struggle with GSA myself especially on my Anubias until I started to keep my Phosphate constantly elevated at 10-15 ppm. and didn't change much else. Now, +10 ppm probably isn't necessary, but I haven't noticed any negative side-effects at all, and needless to say, I haven't seen any GSA since they went away...

Cheers,
Michael

Thanks @MichaelJ, yes I have began adding additional phosphate and things do seem better.

Brilliant tanks and a fantastic video.

Also think George is right suggesting you're being overly critical about the algae, it happens, shame more folk don't show what it takes to reach perfection. Good on you for being so honest.

Thank you John, this tank had just had too many problems for me to be happy, I really wanted to remedy it as I have experienced it in much better health which is frustrating. It is improving though and I’m enjoying it again.
I’d certainly rather be transparent about the issues, people are willing to help and that in turn will maybe help someone else 🙂

Hi @Ady34

The above comments stand out as critical turning points.

The comments below are just some things that stand out from this end. Obviously ignore anything not relevant, but maybe something in here might initiate some new thoughts on the journey of this setup:



It may seem like pedantry to suggest huge water changes daily for the first month regardless, but it offers leeway for the assemblage to settle with a means of daily export. In theory the load on the system then sits in a lower potential range for the first four weeks, rather than just the first week, as you are preventing amalgamative loading favouring certain types of bacteria. This should allow a longer period for replication of various bacterium at different rates, not just heterotrophs to deal with decay. All the meanwhile you’re removing the decay and ammonia in conjunction with your plants, whilst the buffering capacity of the aquarium soil settles ongoing. There is no balance to be found in the first month really, it’s full on warfare and change. The water changes just hit the reset button every 24 hours to install some equity. Even using cycled filters hasn’t led to trouble free startup’s here, but since using daily WC’s for a month, not one setup has had any major issues.

Huge Co2 input = nitrate and phosphate needed in balance. No balance, lots of melting. There was also changes to light intensity on top, again making hitting the needs of the system difficult.

Then a complex combination of interventions that change the requirements for the system.

Excel utilised making additional carbon available.

Finally, a change to lean dosing which presumes daily K and micros with a huge reliance on the substrate for mobile nutrients. Changing dosing regimes requires a settling in period, so feedback from your plants in the first week after the change isn’t representative of ongoing. It takes time for the plants to synthesise what they need under these new arrangements.

With lean water column dosing and rich substrate you can also drive the system too hard with Co2 much more readily, hence why you will see green drop checkers in all ADA tanks. Assume that this ‘stress’ you can witness tank wide (in ADA style tanks) if you overdo injection rate is due to competing metabolic mechanisms hitting a transportation limit. You’re relying on N and P from the substrate predominantly. It is an assumption as not qualified to know. But throughout this transition your plants still have to provide energy for many different metabolic processes whilst adapting. Consider the resulting glucose that it can muster whilst under duress and store inside the plant… If you then trim your plants in a period where adaptation is taking place, you cut off supplies needed for motility, cell division and biosynthetic reactions. A plant with a tuber is an exception to this. In short, trimming whilst changing dosing regimes doesn’t seem sensible.

Can see you’re striving for answers @Ady34 and nothing else will appease you. Same here and all the power to you bud. We want to know what happened so we can avoid it in the future. The good thing with tanks is the answers are usually staring at us, we just need to keep looking.

Thanks Geoff for the comprehensive reply.
I think as you say you need more continuity to be able to better assess the issues and implement the remedies.
I’ve certainly been guilty of trying everything at once and I think a key point you are making is about balance.
Planted tanks are far more complex than I can understand properly, and you seem to have a much better handle on fertilisation uptake techniques in relation to lighting, co2 and substrate choices.
One thing my 600 scape has taught me is that I don’t need to always use as much fertiliser as I thought. I didn’t dose that tank for 9weeks and even now it is very lean. Understanding what I need to dose in relation to how much co2 is injected and how much light I’m using Is unfamiliar to me as I’ve always used an overdose aprroach. I’m happier to try a less is more system now and react to any deficiencies I see.
As for water changes, i guess the more the merrier especially whilst the tank is finding it’s balance. The instability you describe is maybe one reason why I like the idea of the dark start method however I believe you are more a believer in getting everything in and just water change water change water change to overcome potential issue rather than then imbalancing things again by running and planting later down the line.
As I said above, the tank seems to be better, I will continue with a leaner fert routine in the 24hr aquarist apt zero fertiliser but supplement phosphate (basically no nitrates). I have a decent fish load with two feeds a day so I’m guessing that contributes to that part naturally and perhaps now with the co2 and lighting set without change the tank has found more of a balance.
I am dosing excel also currently.
Thanks for the input,
Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Garuf]

I think my 45p is going to have to get an iwagumi next, this scape is a great inspiration point.

 

[Ady34]

I think my 45p is going to have to get an iwagumi next, this scape is a great inspiration point.

Thanks @Garuf.

The tank has recovered well and is now somewhat overgrown again. I’m reluctant to trim too much as I like the nod more towards the nature aquarium style and this is making me consider a rescape in the not too distant future.
I have some slightly unconventional manzanita wood I fancy using in a more traditional nature aquarium layout next.

Here is the tank with the Monte Carlo carpet recovered and plants in good health.











Cheerio,

 

[Ady34]

Hi,
by way of a little update here is a short video from last nights fish feeding;



The tank has for the most part settled and is looking nice.
I have recently carried out another trim as the rescape has no exact date and I wanted to ensure the plants were in good condition if I decide to reuse any.

@George Farmer popped round again on a visit up north a couple of weeks ago and his vlog style video can be viewed here:



I will leave the post with an image taken shortly before Georges visit, and an upward one taken a couple of days ago.

Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Wookii]

Absolutely stunning tanks @Ady34 - considering the issues you were having with the bigger tank earlier on, they are clearly a distant memory now.

@mort mentioned you had Hyphessobrycon elachys in my thread here, and I see them now, they look amazing little fish - how have you found your experiences with them?

 

[Ady34]

Absolutely stunning tanks @Ady34 - considering the issues you were having with the bogger tank earlier on, they are clearly a distant memory now.

@mort mentioned you had Hyphessobrycon elachys in my thread here, and I see them now, they look amazing little fish - how have you found your experiences with them?

Thanks @Wookii, the h. Elachys have been a dream. The perfect fish, no issues, active, hungry and subtly beautiful. They stay small and don’t jump. Great little fish 😃
Here’s one with a pearling rotala bonsai…..

 

[Ady34]

Well, this scape has come to an end.
I’ve ‘enjoyed’ the ride with this one as it hasn’t been straightforward.
Thank you for any input along the way, it has all been much appreciated.

I’ve decided to squeeze another iwagumi style scape into the 900 before a NA scape as I want to take the opportunity to create a scape with the same feel as the 600 next to it. I’m using more wild rhino stone and the same laplata sand and dennerle Yukon and river pebbles for grading. I like the idea of a continuity between the tanks so whilst the 600 is still ticking along I’m going for it……


I’ve got the new hardscape done and added the old soil last night over a base of Aquaforest lava soil with Ada tourmaline bc, bacter 100 and clear super to hopefully offer a nice balanced substrate. I’m going to add root tabs also to boost the old soil nutrient content.
Tonight I will add the finishing detail pebbles and sand foreground.


Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[Deano3]

Looks great ady looking forward to seeing planted and next to the 600 should look great, i think i will try a iwagumi next scape maybe with 3 or 3 trypes of plants but really loving these lately.

Dean

 

[Garuf]

Couple of quick ones:
What skimmer are you using?
Have you thought about going all green plants in the 60?

 

[jasonjleach]

Amazing thread Ady. . Something to aim for. Watching with interest..

 

[Ady34]

Looks great ady looking forward to seeing planted and next to the 600 should look great, i think i will try a iwagumi next scape maybe with 3 or 3 trypes of plants but really loving these lately.

Dean

Thanks Dean, yeah I was going three plant species but have 5 now. All grassy though so a good mix.

Couple of quick ones:
What skimmer are you using?
Have you thought about going all green plants in the 60?

Hi, it’s the Aquascaper glassware.
Regards green in the 600, I really want the red contrast but the 900 however will be all green 🙂

Amazing thread Ady. . Something to aim for. Watching with interest..

Thanks Jason.

Here’s a few up to date images with the sand foreground and detailing pebbles added.




and the plants ready for planting soon….

Cheerio,
Ady.

 

[jasonjleach]

wow amazing, where did you get the stone from? What are you uplanting with?

 

[Ian Holdich]

Love it mate…absolutely love it 🤤🤤

 

[Ady34]

wow amazing, where did you get the stone from? What are you uplanting with?

Hi, I had some pieces that I’d bought over time already and added to them, all from forum sponsors @Horizon Aquatics 🙂
Mostly grasses at the minute, eleocharis acicularis mini, eleocharis vivipara and helanthium tenellum green. I also have riccardia chamedryfolia to add amongst the foreground rocks. I am still slightly undecided about the tenellum, I may just use mini hairgrass.
I started planting last night……


After adding some extra nutrition capsules to the old soil….


I will plant over a few evenings, simple spray down to moisten the soil and cover the tank with cling film until the next evening…

Love it mate…absolutely love it 🤤🤤

Wow, Mr. Holdich, nice to see you here again. Are you visiting or starting up again mate? Hope your well?

Cheerio
Ady.

 

[Wookii]

After adding some extra nutrition capsules to the old soil….

Watch out for those Tropica capsules @Ady34 ! I had a massive problem recently with them rapidly leaching ammonia into the water column.

Osmocote plus disaster