plantbrain
Expert
- Joined
- 2 Aug 2007
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viktorlantos said:
Could this not also be stated for CO2 and ferts and also lighting(too much??)
I mean if this is going to be the standard metric.............heck........the ruler you apply to dosing any algicide.........then adding too much, not following the directions, a huge factor of human error, impatience etc.........
These are human errors and have little to do with the actual real toxicity of the products and their application.
We can and should focus on reducing those errors and not blame it on the products themselves.
That is, simply put, not a fair or logical assessment.
I'm not bashing ADA either, they sell some nice products which are good for the hobbyist, but I do not give them a blank check either.
Like a Nuke. Would you use it with high grade shrimps too where shrimp cost 50-200+Euro / piece? No offense just intrested.
Can you treat decor sand coloring too with it? H2O2 is mostly for spot attack if i am right.
My shrimps are CRS SS grades and few higher or lower.
The others are fire and then high grade cherries/amanos.
Since I breed them, they really do not cost me 50-200$/euros/pounds etc, so I'm less fearful.
I also am a very competent breeder and fish keeper, and have breed them for several years.
I can easily and have riled many shrimp zealots(they hate being called zealots, but
)but the facts and results are what they are.
I've gone slow with risk assessment, but steady.
These are the culls I removed recently from my 60 Gal.
Fires and CRS's.
When a water change is done, the wood or rock is exposed, this is the best time to spray or brush on some Excel, or H2O2 etc........so good sized water changes are wise for that method. If you like to take the wood out or can easily, then it really does not matter what is used.
I've used peroxide, many many folks have.
Many folks have killed things with it, but also with Excel or with CO2 gas...........but folks do not use fear to say not to use CO2 gas....why a free pass on CO2 but not these others? NO3 is far less toxic than CO2........but folks go on about NO3 often times.
Point is.....poor management is the problem, not the methods or chemicals used.
This is no different for this product. And with poor management, comes poor horticulture/aquarium keeping.
It is not to be used directly on plants out of water, it is to be used on wood/rock, non live materials.
H2O2 can be used in the water with the pumps off and squirted.
Try and it and see.
Do not use more than 10mls per 10 gal at any more than 2 hour intervals.
So why use so much light and make management harder for yourself then?
Now you have to fight algae, buy and dose this stuff, not really focus on horticulture and the goal you have.
Why not use a non CO2 method?
Or Excel/easy carbon?
when used as directed.......this is not an issue, as for algae on plants.......you should be able to out pace algae on any plant. that leaves just algae on rocks/wood etc left, which can be brushed or spot treated easily with very cheap products. Excel is also economical for smaller nano tanks. CO2 is also stressful, toxic and harder to stabilize on nano tanks. Been there done that. PITA. My small tanks are non CO2, I can not keep up with the trimming etc because in 2-3 days, the plants would be at the top again. So non CO2 makes a lot more sense for me.
Excel is somewhat in the middle of this.
Or you could go emergent like this tank and can do all the water change and high purity water you want, but still have nice plants and look:
there's some ADA fanboy for you
I think there is a massive amount of discussion on H2O2(see the TPT for example or APD post going back 15 years), you also do not have CO2 on that list, it kills more fish and shrimp than any single thing we use.
Some are oxidizers like bleach, some are cross linkers, some are likely who knows what, most are oxidizers as far as algae killers or abstract metals like copper(which cannot be used for algae killing in a shrimp tank).
Cross linkers are well studied and we have some good papers on inverts and Excel/Easy carbo AI:
http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext ... 050003.pdf
If you follow directions, the toxicity is at about 2ppm or so, well within the non lethal range, when folks 2x or higher the dosage because they are impatience and think/assume more = better/faster to kill, they end up killing their shrimp.
That is also exactly where we see the deaths begin.
Correlation?
Sure........likely? Seems very plausible.
Oxidizers like H2O2 are well documented on line by many users.
Simply because you have not tried these other products or methods does not imply they are any less safe or toxic in any way, nor implies much about the user. You have experience using one very over price algae cure all. My question to you is have you evaluated the other products personally and thus can make a fair assessment for a recommendation?
Can you say they are better or worse when you have not tried them?
Should the root issue of algae itself be addressed rather than a reactionary respose to algae and "take a pill, add another chemical" to the tank? I can only state what I have experience with, if I have not tried it, then I have some work to do.
And.........I might save some $$$ if I can get the same/similar results for 69 pence a liter vs 6 pounds for a few mls.
Also might improve the plant's health and those of the shrimp.
Since you do not know how toxic the Phyton Git really is or not(there's no ingredient's listing).....you cannot say much there. As far as Excel and Easy Carbo.......we can say something, they have tested it critically for toxicity. Peroxide has a long long history of use as well.
About every 6-12 months,a new algae killer has come out.
The issues are always the same old, same old.
I do not buy into the notion that algae is always going to be a problem for all aquarist.
Good horticulture and management leads to hardly any such issues.
Non CO2........less light, good care.........trimming/pruning etc.....
I do not use much of these products any longer but like toxicity in research and in my professional field still.
Since these are often added to aquatic systems to control either algae or aquatic weeds, we MUST also study the effects on invertebrates, fish and downstream usage.
Real Algae problems are an indirect consequence of poor plant health/growth.
With good plant growth/health.........algae is hardly much more than a minor issue. With lots of shrimps?
Should be even less so.
Regards,
Tom Barr
