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Haha well yes but no. It doesn’t seem to matter what I do. Stock heavily, feed more. Algae just doesn’t seem to take a hold anymore

You’re right to an extent. There are a lot of things you can do to make the whole process a lot smoother.

Is it just me or is algae an inevitability in a new tank? I love reading the planted tank journals on the forum but one particular trend I seem to notice, especially in high tech tanks is that the tank seems to run perfectly for a couple of weeks and then chaos. After about 3-6 months of...

Hi All, I know this is dependent but how does lack of oxygen present itself in fish? Can this be a chronic decline rather than just acute issue? For example, could fish that aren’t gasping at the surface still be suffering from oxygen related issues? Lastly, I notice that this forum does its...

I actually do agree with the statement as most plants we use are semi aquatic by nature. Those that grow well without injection show us that they can adapt to life underwater in an aquarium so it’s not true to say that these plants ‘need’ periods of atmospheric exposure in order to survive...

Hi All, Just for arguments sake and actually to hopefully prevent a co2 vs non co2 argument ensuing. The reason I created this thread was because a poster on another forum said that if certain plants cannot grow underwater without supplemental co2 then they shouldn’t be under water and then...

Didn’t Amano run his tanks around 10ppm co2?

Actually this is incorrect. This was in relation to nutrients. Though technically co2 is a nutrient. By the way you no longer need a password to enter his website. https://golias.net/akvaristika/experiments-algae-organics.php

I had access to Marcels work. He also concluded that growth rates with co2 injection were not linear. For example if you halved the amount of co2 growth rate dropped to about 90% of what had been previously measured. I’m not sure however if it was considered that plants may still have been...

Yes, well I’m just stating a fact. The fish don’t die at 30ppm co2. The long term effects are unclear I’ll agree but I don’t want to make assumptions about averages either because it’s becoming apparent that the data may be unreliable. I’m not a co2 user but I don’t want this to become a...

Well we know that most aquarium species can live at 30ppm or slightly higher or we would have had user reports of such deaths. It’s going to be an unknown I guess. How long is the average high tech tank kept running in order to evaluate?

Yes, I thought that thats how it was determined. Under whatever crazy high light was used for EI. The plants used the figures of nutrients we typically quote for EI and the optimum level of co2 for both plant gains and fish health was set at 30ppm.

I was under the impression we got the 30ppm co2 from EI? What was T.Barrs reasoning for the 30ppm co2?

Seems strange to target 30ppm co2 if it is deemed harmful

Thank you, what levels are they exposed to in nature? Are there any examples?

Is this a concern for our livestock? 30ppm co2 day in day out. Does this shorten the life of fish etc? Any evidence for or against? Thanks

Absolutely, I was just searching with the incorrect keyword Thanks

Actually this is the one i was looking for thanks

Thats the on thanks so much. Aeration was the key cheers.

I can’t find it. Does anyone know which one I’m talking about?

Hi All, Didn’t someone here start a thread about injecting co2 whilst aerating showing a graph that capped out at a certain part of the photo period indicating that you can run an airstone for gas exchange still with elevated levels of co2? Thanks CJ

I understand thanks

Sorry you didn’t quote mine so wasn’t sure.

So in that case plants that don’t show iron deficiency symptoms in hard water must be able to get by on lower levels of available iron?

Hi Darrel Could you also add why that might be? Just iron availability due to precipitation? Cheers CJ

Do you know which prefer low or high alkalinity?

Hi All, Does anyone know if theres a list of plants that come from soft water areas and one for harder water areas please. Hoping for something quite comprehensive Cheers

So here’s another question. If aquarium filters typically have more COMAMMOX nitrospira and AOA that can operate at lower pH level and don’t typically require KH and prefer ammonium as their nitrogen source, does their processes acidify the water?

Stable perhaps yes. Safe I guess that depends. Since we have determined that aquarium filters contain organisms capable of ammonia oxidation in acidic mediums I’m much more confident that we do not have to worry about KH/pH dependant nitrification from stalling. If you wanted to try to...

Takes me back to my other thread about old tank syndrome https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/old-tank-syndrome.63108/ I suspect what people thought was responsible for fish deaths (pH dropping and lack of KH) was actually just poor practice all round (myself included). Like you say Darrel any...

So much focus on cost 😂 So the consensus is that we think the fertiliser ratio/concentrations are low because of the markup and profit margins involved. I get it. The question was is the science behind their ratio/concentrations and dosing guides valid for growing plants?they are so dilute...

Either way I think a lot of this data really does make fishless cycling pretty pointless. For me personally, I think that I worry much less about ‘old tank syndrome’ based on this research given that average ammonia loadings are in the micrograms per litre with an abundance of plants and...

Hi Darrel further up (post 4) it says that AOA can fix co2 directly from the atmosphere and that AOB use co2 a but require co3 and bicarbonate as a starting source to fix carbon. Post #10 contradicts this by stating ....... Both AOB and comammox Nitrospira fix atmospheric CO2, AOB by the...

‘and potentially implies that acidophilic AOA have a very high affinity for HCO3− in order to grow at low pH’ Can you explain what she means by this? When you say cut off point at what pH would the TIC by just co2? Thanks

Thanks Darrel. So the take home so far is that AOA and COMM nitro can occur in a wide range of pH levels. The only tank (we can see) that used RO is the only one that has a relatively low kH so all tanks in the table had some KH. This means we cannot say for certain that KH is NOT fundamental...

Cheers Darrel. This is absolutely fantastic stuff. Regards

I know in recent years theres has been a discussion about Ammonia Oxidising Archaea and their prevalence and tolerance in low pH waters. This was previously thought to stall the Ammonia Oxidising Bacteria. My question is are these Archaea dependent on KH? Wastewater treatment facilities...

Thanks that makes a lot of sense. They have been around a very long time.

Hi All, I think I’ve been generally misunderstood. My question really is the credibility of the dosing guides and whether we agree that they are based on some kind of applied science that has some merit. Of course, plants all want the same nutrients but there are other factors that will...

Thats a point, I’d never considered the fact that their dosing may be based around emersed growth but it makes sense. It stands to reason then, that if nutrient uptake and thus requirements of plants are calculated based on plants that have arguably higher PAR and access to atmospheric levels...

I was trying to avoid using the word average but it felt necessary and you’re right to talk about plant mass and nutrient availability. Those were all considered whilst writing this. I’m really curious to know how they arrive at the dose they suggest. On what data is this based on. Tropica...

Did you tend to dose weekly or daily?

Cost aside. I think my question is how accurate do you think these companies are with regards to their dosing guides? EI is a thing but are these guidelines sufficient enough for plants? For example, 1 ml per 10l once per week. Generally speaking, these guides must come close to growing...

Hi All, Just wondering about the consensus on certain premixed dosing solutions and their dosing guidelines. Now I understand that premixing your own solutions from dry has added benefits from cost to ion availability but I was just wondering about the credibility of companies such as TNC and...

Interesting thread thanks. I suppose how quickly iron precipitates will also depend on how many other ions there are in solution to form insoluble compounds with. In hard water, this will probably occur much faster than in softer waters with less ions. Whilst I appreciate that this is an...

Thanks. I was going to experiment by putting dirt in the capsules and pushing them in to my sand. I know someone who used to put dirt in ice cubes and do what you suggest.

Thanks but what exactly am I looking for? Are there different types? Are they all aquarium safe!!!

Hi All, Where do you buy the empty dissolvable gel capsules that people used to put osmocote in? Thanks

How do you keep it at 0? Use RO and add no carbonate based fertiliser? Any link to journal? Thanks

What plants do you have in the zero KH tanks?

Hi OP, How soft is your new water. Can you link the quality report please?

How likely do you think it is that an aquarium (particularly full of plants) depletes the KH levels in soft waters. And if so do you believe this could happen relatively quickly? If the sum of all organisms that presumably use KH or more specifically co3 or in enough numbers do you think this...

Hi All, Just a warning about inverts when using potassium bicarbonate. All my shrimp acted very strange and erratic after using it to raise pH. All MTS closed up in their shells and all crypts melted. May have added way to much to my soft water. Potential ammonia issues becoming toxic as pH...

I also googled around afterwards and found this https://www.plantedtank.net/threads/potassium-bi-carbonate-and-inverts.1251721/

afterwards I did add some magnesium sulphates and dolomite powder. It seemed to work. I do that from now on when water changing and haven’t had an issue since.

Hi Darrel, Thanks. I have a hypothesis that I would like to share and here seems to be a good a place as any. Feel free to move this to it’s own thread if deemed necessary. I wanted to raise the dKH in my tank so I added 2tps of KHCO3 to my 85l tank. According to rotala calculator this adds...

Hi All, I haven’t read all of this thread but wanted to ask a question since it was touched on early in the discussion. If.you add a lot of KHCO3 to your tank is it possible that you will cause calcium to go out of solution if it forms calcium carbonates? cheers CJ

I know of people who do this also. Regards CJ

Thanks Darrel, You are likely right. I’m not sure why it’s pink myself it’s just something I’ve noticed and the main reason I stayed away from it. Regards CJ

thats fair :) My tap water TDS ranges from 30-90ppm so to quote Darrel, there aren’t many ions of any description in there. I don’t use co2 so I’d like a little bit of GH and KH. Regards CJ

@Xenith I’m sorry to hijack the thread but I’d love to here your CaCo3 and MgCo3 mix. I tried very unsuccessful raising dKH with potassium bicarbonate but literally everything single one of my Malaysian Trumpet Snails closed up and didn’t move. I cleared with massive water change until snails...

Dolomite lime is pink, I’ve seen it at the garden centres.

Hello, Someone who actually uses dolomite here. It isn’t pink, it’s white and can be purchased on eBay. It’s used as a food additive to increase calcium and magnesium. It certainly helps with plants that can use carbonates. I notice this very easily since my tap water is very soft. It...

impossible to say as there are too many factors involved.

For what it’s worth I think I most definitely had anaerobic denitrification occurring in this tank. My hypothesis is that, since according to the ‘Ecology of the Planted Aquarium’ by Diana Walstad, hydrogen sulphide production occurs at a much lower redox potential than denitrification and the...

How long was this tank setup? In my experience, the most successful tanks are those that are set up for a long period of time. They tend to be extremely stable and very resilient in terms of algae growth. Could it be that the method you used was just coincidental? Just a thought. Regards CJ

You could be right, I’m just not sure the average person would set them up with this in mind.

Thanks all. i was just wondering why I’ve heard that the submersible makes them ‘superior’ than with an air pump. You might be able to pull more water through the substrate but would that water be as oxygenated as than with the constant surface breaking via bubbles? Cheers CJ

Ok, so just ignoring the part where we dismiss the UGF entirely and talk about other types of filtration. What was/is the main reason people decided to use a submersible pump on an undergravel filter as opposed to the humble air pump? wasnt the whole point to break the surface of the water...

Hi Pete, Thanks for the response. In answer to your question No, I didn’t have any smells prior to tearing the tank down. The tank was in a great state of health in actual fact but tearing it down was the least fun I’ve ever had.

I found this article https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/14-2-4-anaerobic-myth/ there are very strong claims based on ‘scientific experiments’ that it isn’t possible to have denitrification occur in an aquarium or if there is, some criteria first need to be met in order for it to occur that...

one of the reasons I don’t use mechanical filtration is because I wan’t as much natural food as possible to be in the tank and not on a filter sponge where it cannot be accessed. I like to keep a ‘mulmy’ tank which feeds my collection of shrimp, snails and otto’s. regards CJ

Is it not possible that having large amounts of nitrogen does not mean that plant are able to utilise it without the addition of other nutrient? For example, you might have a nitrogen deficiency not because you are lacking the nitrogen ion, but because there isn’t enough potassium (example) for...

used to happen to me all the time. I figured it could have been some type of precipitation occurring as I was using fertilisers at the time. My worst thought was that by uprooting, trimming and moving plants in conjunction with a large water change I was somehow disrupting my microbial...

The only way water changes will disrupt your microbial assemblage is through chlorine or chloramine. Maybe in another few years pesticides. Ive never had any problems since switching to rain water.

I launched some outside in a bucket of mud and left it over an icy winter and spring. Came back in the summer and tipped the muddy water out to find a bucket full I didn’t know what to do with. Not sure what the PAR or co2 levels were in this bucket but it looked pretty hostile. Put some in my...

I have one with about four large underwater leaves and 6 floating leaves. Substrate is inert sand and I just chucked the bulb in the tank. I don’t fertilise. Temp is about 25 degrees and TDS 110ppm. Water is very soft. it did randomly melt off two floating leaves but then just sent two new...

Is it possible that you waited long enough for the new sterile aquarium to establish a flourishing suite of necessary microorganisms and that is why the balance has now tipped in favour of the higher plant/microbe system and less in favour of algae? I see and experience the same issues with...

Fixed assumes that the tank was broken. Were their any issues with the fish etc?

Me neither. Regards CJ

Has anyone ever had a situation where the tank has failed (fish deaths etc) that they could categorically say was caused by old tank syndrome i.e ph crashing due to kh depletion or build up of minerals etc?

I could be wrong here but I suspect one of most important aspects of success for this type of co2 delivery is concentration gradients. It would seem that the rate it which this chamber diffuses in to the water column will be mostly dependent on concentration gradients created by plant uptake...

I take whatever I can from my buckets outside for live and I use frozen cyclops when it’s too cold and wet to harvest. I use this for dry because it’s mostly made from black fruit flies https://www.fishscience.co.uk/

when I pulled my old soil tank down. I could feel varying degrees of temperature within the substrate with my fingers (cold spots). Although now I’m not sure if I imagined this and have blown it up in my mind what I am sure about is that the smell of rotting eggs nearly knocked me out. Point...

I think it’s just one of those where the plant is just trying to adapt all the time. Another reason I think the bell method of co2 delivery is more stable. In that San Francisco shop Ocean aquatics/aquariums he says he put root fertilisers in once a year. He has relatively dim lighting in...

duplicate post. Not sure how to remove

ultimately I personally believe this is it. I honestly believe plants can grow on much less nutrients than we think. It is the co2 thats hard to ‘get right’ and is what causes most algae issues and apparent stunted and deficient leaves. It makes sense that seasonally submerged macrophytes be...

One thing I’ve noticed whilst experimenting (loosely) over the last few years with my soft water tank is how plants adapt to co2 levels. We talked about the RUBISCO enzyme many times here over the years on UKAPS and I find that this enzyme is often the key to understanding how plants behave...

it would be interesting to see how long it takes a drop checker to change colour and just how green (or yellow) it would go.

I’m also wondering whether the co2 is used more or less as it’s required. Since you’re not forcing the co2 in to the water via large exerting pressures the co2 diffuses more inline with a concentration gradient dictated by system and plant usage? This would make it safer. For example, at...

i think really I just need something that goes up when there is more dissolved oxygen available and down when there is less. This looks like a good find. thanks a lot.

I think thats the point really. It doesn’t really matter about bioload and filter clogging etc.. because plants aside, this is probably of how 90 % of people run their tanks and its really easy to fall foul of the points you raised because people go quite long in between filter cleans. With...

Hi Darrel Not the most accurate tests in the world but what do you think about this video?

As far as I can tell the water fall should work in a similar way if you can obtain the type of over flow filter that has a long intake pipe that sits in the lower portions of the tank. Water being drawn in then replenished with oxygenated water continuously should work across the full volume in...

Thanks for the explanation. I currently run an airstone and our methods are practically polar opposites. I don’t use fertiliser or co2. However, like you I want to keep the oxygen levels high but I want to do this with very little flow. The airstone is great for this but they are noisy and...

thanks for the heads up. If I may ask, why did you decide not to buy one?

Thanks Darrel. I’m guessing this needs a probe additionally? cheers

Hi All, Can anyone recommend a decent dissolved oxygen meter for less than £1000. Even cheaper would be better. Cheers

Thanks for the info

Did you try the all the diversified plants that grew under the CFL under the T12s/8s?