Dilute solution credibility

[Soilwork]

Hi All,

Just wondering about the consensus on certain premixed dosing solutions and their dosing guidelines. Now I understand that premixing your own solutions from dry has added benefits from cost to ion availability but I was just wondering about the credibility of companies such as TNC and Tropica and their all in one solutions.

Surely their experiments and data regarding plant uptake and requirements influences their dosing guides on the back of the bottle. These companies must know that their recommended dosing levels would be adequate for the bast majority of plants otherwise their products (and business) would have bombed out of the market years ago.

I know these companies may not (or may?) take PAR or co2 injection in to consideration but I wonder if they do or what data they base their dosing guidelines on. Are the dosing guides credible or are we still under the impression these are just ‘expensive water’. Do we not give them enough credit or have high tech keepers been successful with their fertiliser but only switch due to cost?

I can imagine the likes of tropica and ADA have extensive data and research on nutrient uptake and use formulas to carefully calculate well rounded dose that would grant success for the average hobbyist?

Any thought?

Regards CJ

 

[PARAGUAY]

I think cost is an issue,especially having a few planted aquariums, but also mixing your own sort of gives you a experimental edge, tweak the fertiliser and it's a interesting learning curve.
Most AIOsl would think have the same nutrient percentages give or take,and as the plants grow increase dosage which brings us back to cost

 

[Soilwork]

I think cost is an issue,especially having a few planted aquariums, but also mixing your own sort of gives you a experimental edge, tweak the fertiliser and it's a interesting learning curve.
Most AIOsl would think have the same nutrient percentages give or take,and as the plants grow increase dosage which brings us back to cost

Cost aside. I think my question is how accurate do you think these companies are with regards to their dosing guides? EI is a thing but are these guidelines sufficient enough for plants?

For example, 1 ml per 10l once per week. Generally speaking, these guides must come close to growing plants in most situations or else these companies would cease to exist?

 

[PARAGUAY]

Well looking at Tropica Specialised for high energy tanks they warn of algae issues if overdosing and it's not like they have a range of fertilisers just premium for low energy But l think the dosing is a starting guideline . Quick example George Farmer doses much higher on his CO2 aquariums.But l think your right in most aquariums Tropica example the recommended dose is good enough. Especially with a aquatic soils used

 

[hypnogogia]

In my experience, using TNC compete according to dosing instructions worked for low tech. I seem to remember they also provide guidance for users that want to dose as EI levels.

 

[Soilwork]

In my experience, using TNC compete according to dosing instructions worked for low tech. I seem to remember they also provide guidance for users that want to dose as EI levels.

Did you tend to dose weekly or daily?

 

[KirstyF]

I suspect that ‘average’ is the key word here.

If you are a ferts producer you don’t want to add a whole bunch of nutrients that an ‘average’ tank won’t need, it’s a waste of money. There is also a commercial balance in producing a product that is fit for purpose at the stated dose and requires an adequate quantity to be used in order to promote further purchases, but not so much that people have to buy a new bottle every fortnight. This is about sales after all.

And….if you are targeting a mass market, the ‘average’ tank likely has neither Co2 nor particularly high light and potentially not even a huge plant mass. As EDTA is used in most AIO solutions, I’m guessing high Ph may not have made it into the bag either.

But, based on the ‘average’ tank (whatever that may be) there’s every logical reason to believe that these mixes would be effective.

Personally, I only started DIY when I went high tech (and huge) My previous low light, low tech, smaller tanks, with relatively simple planting, seemed to do well enough with AIO’s.

I think the ‘expensive water’ commentary is not primarily based on the belief that these mixes are no good, but based on the fact that they cost a lot of money by comparison to dry ferts.

 

[hypnogogia]

Did you tend to dose weekly or daily?

I started with once per week and then Increased it when I decided to try EI. After that I purchased dry salts as it’s more economical.

 

[Soilwork]

I suspect that ‘average’ is the key word here.

If you are a ferts producer you don’t want to add a whole bunch of nutrients that an ‘average’ tank won’t need, it’s a waste of money. There is also a commercial balance in producing a product that is fit for purpose at the stated dose and requires an adequate quantity to be used in order to promote further purchases, but not so much that people have to buy a new bottle every fortnight. This is about sales after all.

And….if you are targeting a mass market, the ‘average’ tank likely has neither Co2 nor particularly high light and potentially not even a huge plant mass. As EDTA is used in most AIO solutions, I’m guessing high Ph may not have made it into the bag either.

But, based on the ‘average’ tank (whatever that may be) there’s every logical reason to believe that these mixes would be effective.

Personally, I only started DIY when I went high tech (and huge) My previous low light, low tech, smaller tanks, with relatively simple planting, seemed to do well enough with AIO’s.

I think the ‘expensive water’ commentary is not primarily based on the belief that these mixes are no good, but based on the fact that they cost a lot of money by comparison to dry ferts.

I was trying to avoid using the word average but it felt necessary and you’re right to talk about plant mass and nutrient availability. Those were all considered whilst writing this.

I’m really curious to know how they arrive at the dose they suggest. On what data is this based on. Tropica have been testing natural waterways found decades as far as I know and they must have some pretty clever people doing the math and probability on success. It wouldn’t surprise me if many of the later AIO products are based around the Tropica formula assuming it could be picked apart.

If these were credible (in terms of plant growth) guidelines for dosing, why not try to emulate these ourselves with our DIY salts and see how much mileage we can get out of them?

 

[Happi]

IMO, Tropica had it right, seems like most of the other brands are just excessively adding random things in the aquarium. for those who are using Tropica, the dosing guideline can vary for Tropica and any other fertilizer. for Tropica, they should always target N to determine their dosing and plant growth response.

 

[Hanuman]

Cost aside. I think my question is how accurate do you think these companies are with regards to their dosing guides? EI is a thing but are these guidelines sufficient enough for plants?

For example, 1 ml per 10l once per week. Generally speaking, these guides must come close to growing plants in most situations or else these companies would cease to exist?

Some of these companies, Tropica included base their dosage partially on experience with certain submersed plants but also terrestrial plants and ultimately on averages. There is no one dosage that fits all and if you look closely at the formulae of all these fert companies they are all over the place in terms of %, ratios, composition etc. Every single company will claim theirs is the holy grail with the adequate ratios etc etc. Truth is not even actual botanists and experts can agree on ratios and best dosages in situation where you are gathering plants with multiple requirements in a tank.

All these ferts have their case use and what may work for one person in a specific conditions may not work as well for someone else in different conditions due to interactions happening with water parameters/substrate.

So here is my say. Take with a fat grain of salt what all these companies claim in terms of dosage and recipe. From top to bottom and sideways. While doing the IFC Calculator with @Zeus. we have basically scavenged the internet for fert producers and it's interesting to see how most if not all have adapted their formula through the years and in some instances copy each other.

 

[erwin123]

I am using APT Ei/Tropica specialised/Seachem trace/iron ferts aka diluted water, but the yearly cost is manageable since I only have a single 90P tank, versus enthusiasts with a larger tank/multiple tank.

More important to me is that the ferts seem to be working, I haven't killed my plants (yet), and algae is under control (not zero, but under control )

 

[Soilwork]

Some of these companies, Tropica included base their dosage partially on experience with certain submersed plants but also terrestrial plants and ultimately on averages. There is no one dosage that fits all and if you look closely at the formulae of all these fert companies they are all over the place in terms of %, ratios, composition etc. Every single company will claim theirs is the holy grail with the adequate ratios etc etc. Truth is not even actual botanists and experts can agree on ratios and best dosages in situation where you are gathering plants with multiple requirements in a tank.

All these ferts have their case use and what may work for one person in a specific conditions may not work as well for someone else in different conditions due to interactions happening with water parameters/substrate.

So here is my say. Take with a fat grain of salt what all these companies claim in terms of dosage and recipe. From top to bottom and sideways. While doing the IFC Calculator with @Zeus. we have basically scavenged the internet for fert producers and it's interesting to see how most if not all have adapted their formula through the years and in some instances copy each other.

Thats a point, I’d never considered the fact that their dosing may be based around emersed growth but it makes sense.

It stands to reason then, that if nutrient uptake and thus requirements of plants are calculated based on plants that have arguably higher PAR and access to atmospheric levels of co2, that there could be more margin for error built in to submersed dosing than we give credit for.

I agree that individual tank requirements vary wildly but these products must cater to the vast majority otherwise people would stop using their products with repeated failures.

 

[Hanuman]

Thats a point, I’d never considered the fact that their dosing may be based around emersed growth but it makes sense.

I didn't say that the dosing is exclusively based on emersed growth. If that was the case our plants in our tanks would be burnt to the bone considering the fert concentration we usually give to terrestrial plants.

It stands to reason then, that if nutrient uptake and thus requirements of plants are calculated based on plants that have arguably higher PAR and access to atmospheric levels of co2, that there could be more margin for error built in to submersed dosing than we give credit for.

I believe all liquid fertilizers sold and aimed at the aqua hobby are exactly for that. They are highly watered down versions of terrestrial fertilizers. Even EI is no where near to the dosing we would give to terrestrial plants. Most terrestrial plants laugh and then would die at those doses. In fact I have been watering my fence trees for the past year and half with my tank water and the trees are all nearly dead. I added some 20-20-20 NPK 4 days ago...BOOM the trees start sending leaves everywhere.

I agree that individual tank requirements vary wildly but these products must cater to the vast majority otherwise people would stop using their products with repeated failures.

Well that's a reality, not all fert mixes work as well in all tank conditions. They try to cater for a wide general audience with average parameters. If you notice most of these brands explicit what the dosing is according to what type of tank you are running (low tech, medium tech, high tech) and that covers 95% of people. You'll always have the 5% remaining which have wild water parameters and where interactions can happen.

Cost wise, a 500ml bottle of EI AIO costs me ~1.13USD to produce (0.8USD for the plastic bottle + pump and 0.32USD for the actual dry ferts). I can easily assume actual liquid fertilizer producers can slash that in half considering they buy dry salts and bottles in large quantities. Then they sell the bottle 20-30USD to the public.... But this is another topic

 

[KirstyF]

If these were credible (in terms of plant growth) guidelines for dosing, why not try to emulate these ourselves with our DIY salts and see how much mileage we can get out of them?

I think the (possibly incorrect) assumption here is that they know better than us.

I don’t doubt that they know how to put together a product that works for whatever average tank they may be targeting, and that research goes into that. (As you say, they’ve got to sell this stuff), but I suspect that there is, in many ways, more ‘expertise’ inside the hobby, that is directly related to the hobby, than there is outside of it.

We, as a community, are not restricted to trying to find a one size fits all. We have the freedom to push the limits and use solutions that may fit (or not 😏) our very many different tank parameters and goals.

eg: X AIO product may work in X average tank (and a range either side) but will it help grow the perfect Pedicellata, in sand, with high light, and still keep plant B, C and D happy!!

Ferts don’t have to be tricky tbf, many folks do just fine with standard AIO’s and EI as a method, is pretty simple to follow with DIY. It is when we are looking to fine tune that you tend to find folks tinkering; some may simply vary an EI dose, some may go an entirely different route, and DIY ferts certainly give the opportunity to do that.

It’s kind of like, Tesco Finest make a pretty good pie, but if I want one that meets my personal taste, I need to make it myself, right!! (Or at least I would, if I could cook worth a damn! 😂)

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I’d never considered the fact that their dosing may be based around emersed growth

but I was just wondering about the credibility of companies such as TNC and Tropica and their all in one solutions.

Surely their experiments and data regarding plant uptake and requirements influences their dosing guides on the back of the bottle. These companies must know that their recommended dosing levels would be adequate for the bast majority of plants otherwise their products (and business) would have bombed out of the market years ago.

I think there are a number of different layers to unpick.

I'm pretty sure @Happi is right, Tropica will have an optimal nutrient regime, the one they use during plant production. This is almost certainly originally derived from terrestrial plant production and I'd guess that <"their all-in-one mix"> will be similar in ratio and composition to their glasshouse mix, although a much more dilute solution.



cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If you are a ferts producer you don’t want to add a whole bunch of nutrients that an ‘average’ tank won’t need, it’s a waste of money. There is also a commercial balance in producing a product that is fit for purpose at the stated dose and requires an adequate quantity to be used in order to promote further purchases, but not so much that people have to buy a new bottle every fortnight. This is about sales after all.

Most AIOsl would think have the same nutrient percentages give or take,and as the plants grow increase dosage which brings us back to cost

I believe all liquid fertilizers sold and aimed at the aqua hobby are exactly for that. They are highly watered down versions of terrestrial fertilizers.

I think you are all right, the bottom line is the <"bottom line"> and that there is an <"optimal price point"> at where sales and margins are maximised.

<"Aesthetics and labels"> are difficult with fertilisers, so I'd guess it is only <"ADA obsessives"> who are going to shell out for the <"complete ADA nutrient system"> and conversely probably also relatively few people who would use a <"terrestrial plant dry salt mix">, so most of the market is in the middle and that is where they've positioned themselves.

Because we are talking about a <"big mark-up on cheap ingredients"> companies are going to have to find a USP that <"suggests that their product"> is, in some way, superior to that of their competitors.

cheers Darrel

 

[Soilwork]

Hi All, I think I’ve been generally misunderstood. My question really is the credibility of the dosing guides and whether we agree that they are based on some kind of applied science that has some merit. Of course, plants all want the same nutrients but there are other factors that will dictate which plants do better.

I’m not suggesting that they are smarter. But rather that they are still credible and relevant in the hobby.

I wasn’t suggesting that mixes were based solely on emersed growth but the data and considerations are likely extrapolated as such. Please don’t think I am attacking the hobbyists and the pleasure they derive from trying to concoct the perfect solution for their tank.

I am just trying to understand where the companies ‘fit in’. Well not even understand. Just want the experienced hobbyist consensus is now that we have developed away from AIO solutions by big companies.

 

[Hanuman]

My question really is the credibility of the dosing guides and whether we agree that they are based on some kind of applied science that has some merit

Each manufacturer has a different dosing strategy. The dosing they prescribe is in relation to what they think plants need and in what conditions and they all have a ball park idea. Some will go on the low side, others on the high side. Some manufacturer also have different products to address different needs such Dutch style setups or more nature style or low tech. So there is definitely some science in what they recommend (at least for the more reputable brands) but a lot of it is also based on past experience. I do not doubt that they believe in what they recommend. But they are also here for the business.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My question really is the credibility of the dosing guides and whether we agree that they are based on some kind of applied science that has some merit.

Credible for <"Tropica">, <"TNC"> etc., probably less credible for some of the other sellers, who are basically selling solutions too dilute to <"be of any practical use">.

cheers Darrel