Transferring to a new tank

[Coread]

Hi Everyone

I’m not sure if this is the right section, but I’m due to move my live stock from an existing (112 Litre) tank, to a new (200 Litre) tank.

My new tank is set up and is planted moderately in Tropica aqua soil , it has a new 407 filter running on it and has been running for around a week. I’ve done 3x 30% water changes (I’ve only just discovered the gold standard of water changes, so missed the numbers). I’ve seen no detectable ammonia yet, although I was expecting some from the soil - and I’m not adding in any ammonia except from a small amount from the fertiliser.

After searching the forum, I’ve found bits of answers but really unsure on what my next step should be.

My old tank has a small canister filter and air filter.

Can I move all of the filter media from my old tank into my new tank along with the fish (6 Cory, 8 Cherry barbs) - as there is plenty of room in my 407. If so when is best to do this?

Other options being seeding the new tank with some of the filter media from the old - although I’m a little worried about a crash as I’ve taken plants from the old tank and moved them into the new already.

Or leaving the tank to mature (cycle) on its own (testing regularly)?

Or adding in extra ammonia to kick start the cycle?

 

[richardcunliffe]

If you are shutting down the old tank I would definitely keep all the filter material into the new filter. Sounds like you've already planted or I would recommend taking a bunch of old substrate with you too.
I would think if you take over the whole contents of your old filter now and sprinkle in some flakes every other day you'd be good to keep everything going. After a couple more weeks check your ammonia nitrates and rites and if 0 then take over the barbs. Give it a week or so and then take over the Cory's. Your old tank should have plenty of goodness in the substrate to not worry about fresh filter materials causing you issues.
You could just wait, but to me that is making things more difficult than they need to be when you have a mature tank on hand.
Maybe someone else will give a different opinion. Fundamentally, if you are testing and watching and reading around you're doing all the right things

 

[keef321]

If you are shutting down the old tank I would definitely keep all the filter material into the new filter. Sounds like you've already planted or I would recommend taking a bunch of old substrate with you too.
I would think if you take over the whole contents of your old filter now and sprinkle in some flakes every other day you'd be good to keep everything going. After a couple more weeks check your ammonia nitrates and rites and if 0 then take over the barbs. Give it a week or so and then take over the Cory's. Your old tank should have plenty of goodness in the substrate to not worry about fresh filter materials causing you issues.
You could just wait, but to me that is making things more difficult than they need to be when you have a mature tank on hand.
Maybe someone else will give a different opinion. Fundamentally, if you are testing and watching and reading around you're doing all the right things

Can I ask, do you know, if moving the filter material over could possibly introduce algae spores from the previous tank, or is it more the case of, if the conditions in his new tank are not conducive to algae, he will not have a problem?

I'm asking this question, I have a similar situation. I have an existing tank that I will be closing down, but it has always had BBA (although under control). I would like to introduce some of the filter material to my new tank to seed it, but I was a bit worried of introducing BBA. The same with re-using plants.

Thank you

 

[richardcunliffe]

There are people more qualified than me to answer but I'd think if it was BBA you're worried about then the tank conditions are going to be much more impactful than something you introduce. BBA is inevitable whether you start with it or not, if there is something off (the alignment of the stars in some cases)
For other things it may be the case that you don't want to reuse (duck weed etc) but maybe the plants are more likely to introduce those things than the filter material? Not sure. @dw1305 ?

 

[Coread]

I would think if you take over the whole contents of your old filter now and sprinkle in some flakes every other day you'd be good to keep everything going. After a couple more weeks check your ammonia nitrates and rites and if 0 then take over the barbs. Give it a week or so and then take over the Cory's. Your old tank should have plenty of goodness in the substrate to not worry about fresh filter materials causing you issues.

Thank you Richard, I’m going to move over the media from my old canister, to my new canister now - but I’ll leave the air filter where it is (I don’t want one in my new tank).

I’ll pop some flakes into the new tank and start testing both tanks every other day 😊.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

For other things it may be the case that you don't want to reuse (duck weed etc) but maybe the plants are more likely to introduce those things than the filter material?

I'd guess that plants are much more likely to introduce algae than filter material. Black Brush Algae (BBA) is a <"bit of a strange one">, it has a <"very complex life cycle">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Barbara Turner]

If you record your nitrate and nitrite levels you should be able to plot a nice graph. Seeing the values spike then drop back down.

 

[Coread]

I would definitely keep all the filter material into the new filter

I transferred everything over two weeks ago - All of my old media fit nicely into the new filter, my old tank is holding steady with just the air filter running. I also transferred a few plants over.

I’m recording my journey here: 200 litre low tech

After a couple more weeks check your ammonia nitrates and rites and if 0

If you record your nitrate and nitrite levels you should be able to plot a nice graph

Interestingly, I’ve seen no detectable (using an api liquid test) ammonia, nitrate, nitrate over the last three weeks - although I’ve been expecting some ammonia to show up from the substrate, fertiliser, or fish food.

I have been doing 30%/40% water changes every 3 days - so I’m thinking that this, along with the new and old plants, and the already matured canister filter, is keeping the numbers low.

I think what I might do is transfer 5 cherry barbs at the weekend, keep a close eye on everything, and then transfer the other cherry barbs a week after, and then finally the Corys (along with the air filter sponge, potentially a rock or two (I’d like to pop an observation rock in), and the rest of the plants).

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Interestingly, I’ve seen no detectable (using an api liquid test) ammonia, nitrate, nitrate over the last three weeks - although I’ve been expecting some ammonia to show up from the substrate, fertiliser, or fish food.

It is likely to be problems with the test kit.

cheers Darrel

 

[Nuno da Silva]

Hi all,

It is likely to be problems with the test kit.

cheers Darrel

Hello,

The man has a mature filter, a tank full of mature plants and 40% WC every 3 days. I'm not surprised there's no detectable ammonia or nitrite. Even nitrate, is not that surprising.

I would introduce some fish to keep the cycle ticking!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I would introduce some fish to keep the cycle ticking!

You don't actually need to have an ammonia source in a planted tank. Have a look at <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee"> it is about as good as we've got at the moment.

The man has a mature filter, a tank full of mature plants and 40% WC every 3 days. I'm not surprised there's no detectable ammonia or nitrite. Even nitrate, is not that surprising.

I agree, I'm much keener on <"tank maturity"> as a measure of "fish readiness".

I still think that it's likely that there is some <"fixed nitrogen"> present (probably as nitrate (NO3-)). The problem with testing for TAN (NH3 / NH4+) and nitrate (NO3-) is that they don't form any insoluble compounds, so <"we need a fairly involved method"> to convert them to compounds that are insoluble and coloured.
Ammonia

The real problem is that testing for ammonia isn't as straight-forward as many forums would have you believe. Because it occurs as both a dissolved gas (NH3) and an ion (NH4+), dependent upon pH, most test kits measure "total ammonia nitrogen" TAN as NH3. It should say on your test kit whether it is a "Salicylate" or "Nessler" test.

There a number of problems with this, and the measured values may have little to do with the actual ammonia levels. If the test gives a green/blue colour? it is a salicylate based test ("free ammonia reacts with hypochlorite to form monochloramine. Monochloramine reacts with salicylate, in the presence of sodium nitro-ferricyanide, to form 5-aminosalicylate"). The efficiency of these tests declines over time as chlorine is released from the sodium hypochlorite reagent.

Nessler reagent tests also have some problems, but are more stable, my suspicion would be that they aren't still sold due to the mercury issue? if it is a Nessler test it will give an orange colour.

We do some ammonia testing (as NH4+ with an ion selective electrode), but even then values are open to question due to interference by sodium (Na+) etc. Why use an ion selective electrode? because it gives you a more consistent result than the tests do. Would I make decisions based upon it? No, because it is still not reliable or repeatable.

Nitrate

Nitrate is often the <"smoking gun"> of preceding high levels of TAN and nitrite. Unfortunately ~all nitrate containing compounds are soluble, which means that to use a colorimetric method (like in the <"API NO3 test kit">) you need to <"reduce the NO3- to nitrite (NO2-)">.

The reducing agent was traditionally cadmium (Cd), but because of cadmium's toxicity, we now use vanadium (V).

There are two options for the production of a coloured compound.

• The Azo dye method: "Nitrate is reduced to nitrite by a reducing agent in the presence of an acidic buffer, the nitrite is converted to nitrous acid which diazotizes an aromatic amine, this coupled with N-(1-naphthyl)-ethylenediamine to form a red-violet azo dye". The alternative to the azo dye method is to use
• Salicylic acid: "Cadmium (or vanadium) metal reduces nitrates in the sample to nitrite. The nitrite ion reacts in an acidic medium with sulfanilic acid to form an intermediate diazonium salt. The salt couples with gentisic (salicic) acid to form an amber colored solution".

In the lab we use an <"ion selective electrode">*, but you still needs to make up standards etc. It was actually the <"issues with nitrate (NO3-) testing"> that initially led me to the <"Duckweed Index">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Nuno da Silva]

Hi all,

You don't actually need to have an ammonia source in a planted tank. Have a look at <"Correspondence with Dr Ryan Newton - School of Freshwater Sciences, University of Wisconsin—Milwaukee"> it is about as good as we've got at the moment.

That's another topic for the reading list... at the momet I'm trying to wrap my head around the fertilizer calculations and solufeed mix, etc... I need to up my game, I wish I had paid more attention on biochemistry.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

That's another topic for the reading list...

We've been lucky enough to get replies from several scientists who work on nitrification in aquarium filters, it has been really good of them to offer their time.

Josh Neufeld is a fish keeper, as well as being a research scientist <"http://cichlidpower.org.au/TCM/PDF/041/TCM041-201203_Apr_wcon.pdf"> (pages 14 - 20 "Strangers in your home: Archaea thrive in aquarium biofilters").

• <"Correspondence with the Neufeld lab. University of Waterloo">

We've also talked to Tim Hovanec, and again he has been incredibly generous with his time. The marine article is a really good read, even if you aren't interested in reef tanks etc.

• <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">
• <"Tim Hovanec's "Nitrification in marine aquarium" article">

I need to up my game, I wish I had paid more attention on biochemistry

They are quite technical answers, but basically the Ammonia Oxidising Bacteria (AOB) that were thought to perform nitrification in aquariums don't occur in aquaruinm filters, but what do are Ammonia Oxidising Archaea (AOA) and COMAMMOX Nitrospira that convert TAN (NH3 / NH4+) directly to nitrate (NO3-), without producing nitrite (NO2-).

New research is being published all the time, but it looks like COMAMMOX Nitrospira are probably the most important players in aquariums etc. <"Network of Nitrifying Bacteria in Aquarium Biofilters: An Unfaltering Cooperation Between Comammox Nitrospira and Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea"> & <"https://journals.asm.org/doi/full/10.1128/aem.00104-24">.

........ Clade A comammox Nitrospira amoA genes were detected for all 38 freshwater aquarium biofilter samples and were dominant among ammonia oxidizers for 30 of the freshwater biofilters, with amoA genes of AOA dominant in the other seven freshwater biofilters (Fig. 3). Overall, the average number of comammox Nitrospira amoA gene copies detected in freshwater biofilters at 2.2 × 103 ± 1.5 × 103 copies/ng of DNA was significantly greater than the average concentration of AOA amoA genes 1.1 × 103 ± 2.7 × 103 copies/ng (P < 0.001). The AOB amoA genes had the smallest concentration in the freshwater biofilters, with an average of 3.2 × 101 ± 1.1 × 102 copies/ng of DNA, which was significantly lower than amoA concentrations of AOA and CMX (P < 0.001)........

cheers Darrel