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Do plants always need fertilizer, Micronutrients and Macronutrients

maverick786us

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Columbus, GA
A 3 months old heavily planted cycled tank, that has pressurized CO2, and fish waste and uneaten food is food source for plants (ammonia from it broken into nitrates), do plants always need fertilizer, Micronutrients and Macronutrients to consume nitrate and CO2?
 
They need nutrients one way or another, yes.

There are many potential sources of nutrients besides fertilizer (tap water, fish waste, soil, certain rocks), but all these sources are highly variable and can be hard to quantify. Some nutrients are harder to come by through these routes than others. How can you be sure your plants are getting enough of all the different elements they need? The more plants you have and the faster they grow, the more nutrients they will need. Most of us add fertilizer to be sure we have all of our bases covered, though there are many different approaches about how to do that.
 
OK initially I thought a fully cycled planted tank get its nutrients from fish waste and uneaten food. Then one day I was shocked when I discovered that, my 3 months old heavily planted tank had nitrate level bit high. I did my research and I got questions from some of the experts, that how frequently do I dose fertilizers, nutrients (micronutrients and macronutrients) to these plants. The experts said that plants need those doses to CONSUME nitrates and CO2. I was bit puzzled that nitrate is already a natural fertilizer / food for plants and the plants need extra bit of nutrients to consume their basic food?

Regardless I increased the dose of fertilizer and nutrients (micronutrients and maconutrients ) to twice a week. But somehow I felt it wasn't adequate for the plants, because I didn't see the plants develop vibrant color, it was a non CO2 tank, but I was using liquid CO2, I thought its a substitute to pressure injected CO2.

One day I met a guy who is into aquascaping and he made some really good aquascape with carpet grass and background plants. I asked him which fertilizer, and nutrients formula he is being giving to his plants. He said he as 5 massive sized tank (50 gallon) and for such a large quantity of water it will cost him a fortune for fertilizer and nutrients. He said he let plants get nutrients naturally from fish waste and uneaten food.

So let me rephrase my question. Without fertilizer, nutrients (micronutrients and macronutrients), from external sources the plants will not consume nitrates and CO2 at all?
 
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The easiest way to look at it is if you think of it as a balance. For proper plant growth you need all the building blocks in a particular ratio and that means if you have an excess of one it isn't being used up because you are limited by the amounts of the others. This is why we dose nutrients, so that plants aren't limited by one of these building blocks. Some nutrients are abundant because of high stocking levels, large amounts of food etc but others are not added in the quantities healthy plant growth needs unless we intervene.

Liquid co2 doesn't compare to injected co2 but many plants don't need either, you just limit the speed of growth. Lots of us aren't co2 users and you can maintain a very healthy, largely problem free tank without it.

A high fish load and heavy feeding can certainly maintain a planted aquarium, it was what I did for years, but it does limit the species of plants that will do well. It tends to be the very weedy or easiest of plants that don't need any addition but many plants just won't do well in such an environment.
 
was shocked when I discovered didn't see the plants develop vibrant color, it was a non CO2 tank, but I was using liquid CO2, I thought its a substitute to pressure injected CO2.
"Liquid CO2" does have its uses but a substitute for injected CO2 gas is not, misleadingly, one of them. The liquid carbon is a good algaecide, particularly applied neat on hardscape, but it won't meaningfully affect carbon levels as a plant growth limiting nutrient.
 
If your tank is so unhealthy for your plants that they stop growing, yeah, at that point they won't be taking up nitrates or CO2. If they are growing at all, they are consuming some, though the amount will be less than if the plants weren't being growth limited.

As with so many things in the hobby, you have to look at your system as a whole. The high nitrates in your water column doesn't mean that your plants aren't consuming any, just that they are being produced at a faster rate than the plants are using. Maybe your plants are growing well, but you have a lot of fish and don't do many water changes. That could result in high nitrates, and it would be more easily remedied with water changes rather than messing with the plants. Plants that have access to the air are sometimes called "nitrate sponges" because they grow so fast they can use a lot of nitrogen.

Some people have a system that doesn't require extra fertilizer, but their plants are getting all their nutrients from other places. These tanks tend to be a specific flavor of tank - no co2 injection, lower light, light fish loads, lots of easy plants. Everything is low demand and slow growing and it's easier to keep in balance.

One day I met a guy who is into aquascaping and he made some really good aquascape with carpet grass and background plants. I asked him which fertilizer, and nutrients formula he is being giving to his plants. He said he as 5 massive sized tank (50 gallon) and for such a large quantity of water it will cost him a fortune for fertilizer and nutrients. He said he let plants get nutrients naturally from fish waste and uneaten food.

If he's found a way to make this work, then that's great, and if you want to follow his method you'll need to copy them as closely as possible. But if you learn to you dry salts fertilizer isn't especially expensive, especially compared to everything else in the hobby. It just requires some research and math.
 
If your tank is so unhealthy for your plants that they stop growing, yeah, at that point they won't be taking up nitrates or CO2. If they are growing at all, they are consuming some, though the amount will be less than if the plants weren't being growth limited.

As with so many things in the hobby, you have to look at your system as a whole. The high nitrates in your water column doesn't mean that your plants aren't consuming any, just that they are being produced at a faster rate than the plants are using. Maybe your plants are growing well, but you have a lot of fish and don't do many water changes. That could result in high nitrates, and it would be more easily remedied with water changes rather than messing with the plants. Plants that have access to the air are sometimes called "nitrate sponges" because they grow so fast they can use a lot of nitrogen.

Some people have a system that doesn't require extra fertilizer, but their plants are getting all their nutrients from other places. These tanks tend to be a specific flavor of tank - no co2 injection, lower light, light fish loads, lots of easy plants. Everything is low demand and slow growing and it's easier to keep in balance.



If he's found a way to make this work, then that's great, and if you want to follow his method you'll need to copy them as closely as possible. But if you learn to you dry salts fertilizer isn't especially expensive, especially compared to everything else in the hobby. It just requires some research and math.
If you look at my main articles about my latest aquascape projects.

I started using pressure CO2 kit 2 days after planting this tank. I would have done earlier but I thought I should give it a try with DYI CO2 kit which didn't work.


I will use immediately deploy pressure injected CO2 kit after flooding

What I mentioned in my earlier was about an old tank, which I set up way back in august - September when I was new into Aquascaping, I would say I am still a beginner into the world of Aquascaping, For me its a hobby I am not a professional aquscapist. That time I wasn't ready to use pressurized CO2 so I was looking for cheap alternatives, like liquid CO2 and those CO2 tablets.

In that tank the fast growing plants like "water wisteria", Ludwiga read grew and some cheap plants I don't know their names grew very well, but didn't develop vibrant color during their the initial stage of their growth. it was the grasses and Bucepehelandra that didn't do well and there was excess nitrates in the water, so I thought something wasn't quite right. Though now that tank has taken the shape of uncontrolled jungle I might soon retire that tank or re-scape or I might replace the plants.

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Hi all,


I'd guess that the actual situation is closer to MLH, but in some ways it is just a more nuanced take on Liebig's Law of the Minimum.

It is all back to the assembly line aspect of plant growth, you need all the components (nutrients) or you don't get a car (plant growth).

Cheers Darrel

Ever since I was told that if I don't give fertilizers and other nutrients, the plants won't be able to consume nitrate and CO2, I've been continuously dosing my tank with it, minimum twice a week, sometimes thrice. I created this thread not stop that, But I wanted more knowledge on it.
 
nitrate and CO2
Thanks Maverick, and your plants look great, you raise good questions, and I am not a scientist. But I am a keen gardener and I have kept tropical fish from my childhood and have successfully maintained planted tanks for some four decades, sometimes with rather more algae than is ideal.

Some garden plants need soil with a lot of richness, (in farming Corn needs a lot of fertiliser to produce good yields) and well rotted manure works a treat, as does bone, hoof and blood, or/and chemical fertilisers. Some plants even benefit from foliar feedings in the growing season. Roses love a good feed, Californian poppies really don't. Try a wild flower mix on Nitrate rich soil and things don't go well, most wild flowers need low nutrient soil, but some species of grass, love a rich soil and with other 'weeds' dominate a rich environment. Some folks have to remove a few inches of top soil to have success with wild flowers. Their garden soil is simply too rich, the same applies to arable farmland, it can take years to get the Nitrate levels down to successfully grow a wildflower meadow. Nitrate levels in the water in unpolluted rivers can be really low, way lower than we can measure with our hobby test kits.

Most aquatic plants come from low nutrient waters, very low in fact, less than 1 ppm Nitrate, but many plants have their roots in rich humus packed substrates. It never ceases to surprise me how greedy Crypts and Amazon swords are, plant them in a really rich substrate, or add loads of nutrient capsules and they grow lots of leaves. Many plants in rich water suffer badly because algae grow quickly and cover their leaves.

Inject CO2 and use lots of light, and many plants get very hungry, whether in a fish tank or in a greenhouse.

Here in England you never need to feed any outside garden plant October to March, but in June or July when the day is long and temperatures are higher, some plants need fed heavily, tomato plants can be incredibly hungry, and they benefit from a Potassium rich feed, which is why I sometimes, but not often, add Tomato feed to my tanks, but since tomato feed contains a fair amount of Nitrate and Phosphate I can easily overly enrich the water column and get a green algae outbreak.

Floating plants with access to the high levels of atmospheric CO2, and perhaps more importantly, inexhaustible, levels of CO2 in the atmosphere, if light and temperature is also good, can fairly quickly deplete the water column of Nitrate and Phosphate and show deficiency signs, the so-called Duckweed Index.

With medium light and a rich substrate and either no CO2 injection or modest injection (water column <10 ppm of CO2, but >5 ppm) I would guess with normal fish stocking, the faecal matter and left over fish food would ensure more than enough macro nutrients were available. However, in hard water I have always, however, had to add chelated Iron.

The Father Fish method, works, to a point, no water column fertilisation and little by way of water changes - though his tanks are never that impressive to me - I suspect, they work because the substrate is very rich and he uses a lot of light, a lot, I asked him, four 100 watt floods on one fairly shallow tank, and easy plants.

I have always found Walstad tanks hard to get through the first 6 months but after that they work pretty well, with moderately soft water, easy plants, modest lighting, humus rich soil and CO2 from, as some others have suggested, decomposing wood (cellulose etc.) releasing modest amounts of CO2.

In the British Isles house plants do not ordinarily need to be fed during the winter, come spring and extra light, and they benefit from a feed, by the summer they need a feed, sometimes weekly. If plants are in a commercial greenhouse and are being illuminated with powerful Red & Green lighting in addition to the sunlight, and kept warm, they need regular feeding. Aquatic plants in an aquarium are not however, comparable to hydroponically grown plants, the latter only have their roots in the water and the nutrients, aquarium plants have their leaves in the water, high Nitrate and Phosphate levels will produce conditions for eutrophication, and the plant leaves get smothered by fast growing algae. High Phosphate and high Nitrate levels in the summer in the UK often produce algae blooms which sometimes literally poison animals and choke plants and aquatic life, the BOD issue.

As I have said, I am not a scientist, I will be interested to read any observations on my responses.
 
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Thank you for the valuable information. After reading all the responses I got, I will continue giving fertilizer, micronutrients and macronutrients to the plants.

This is what I give to my plants (the attachment). Out of which I should give more doses of iron potassium phosphorus and manganese. Because these are the nutrients that they don’t get naturally from nitrate. Correct me if I am wrong
 

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Maverick, I don't know the labelling requirements in the USA, and can't work out from the photo you loaded what the proportions of various macro and micro nutrients in the different bottles are, and in the UK sadly not all products for the aquarium hobby are labelled in the same consistent way as gardening products.

I, as I said, rely on occasional additions of Tomato plant fertiliser to the water column to supplement the nutrition capsules I insert deep into the substrate. Currently things in my tanks are fine and the frogbit, a great indicator plant, is thriving, new plants appearing regularly, and has large leaves and is a good consistent healthy mid-green colour. Pale normally means lack of nutrients if the lighting is adequate.

The Tomato feed I occasionally use, has an NPK of 11-9-30 i.e. the ratio is 11 parts Nitrate to 9 Phosphate and a whopping 30 Potassium, it also contains all the trace elements, Iron etc., that are required. How much to use is a moot point. The first thing I would do is test the water column, hobby kit tests are not very accurate but if you have somewhere between 10 and 20 ppm of Nitrate you are probably fine, making the slightly, rash assumption that if there is adequate Nitrate and you have been using a balanced fertiliser, all is well. Sometimes Iron and Potassium can be deficient when there is enough Nitrate and sometimes Phosphate levels can be way too high, but floating plants and time will together sort things out.
 

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Not really, Tomato feed is water column feeding, so there is a big risk of algae if too generously used. It supplements root tabs, buried under fine substrate - soil or sand - root tabs or nutrition capsules shouldn't significantly contribute to water column nutrition, though aquarium pelleted soil products do, certainly initially, but floating plants can't of course access substrate nutrition. Stem plants utilise both, crypts etc., are largely, but not exclusively, root feeders. Hope that is clear.
 
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