Are all Botanicals safe for fishes?

[Marcia]

Hi everyone, recently I’ve been really interested in those biotopes that resemble the river floor beds. While I don’t have the talent that many of you do to scape, I love the idea of scattering botanicals to entertain the fishes and shrimps. I’ve got a selection of beautiful botanicals from Blackwater UK and plan to add it to my 90L planted tank (not all of it, I’ll keep most to replace as needed). I wonder if they are all safe for any kind of fish or if they’d change the water parameters to any risky level?

My water is moderately soft, pH 6.2-6.5.
My creatures are: 1 Longfin BN pleco, 7 otocinclus, 4 Rasboras, 7 tetras, 3 shrimps

The botanicals are: casuarina cones, jacaranda pods, sterculia pod, alnus cones, schima pods, areca pericaps and parviflora pods

Are they all safe for fishes/water parameters? Can I add as many as I want? Do I need to boil them first?

Thank you.

 

[Wookii]

Hi everyone, recently I’ve been really interested in those biotopes that resemble the river floor beds. While I don’t have the talent that many of you do to scape, I love the idea of scattering botanicals to entertain the fishes and shrimps. I’ve got a selection of beautiful botanicals from Blackwater UK and plan to add it to my 90L planted tank (not all of it, I’ll keep most to replace as needed). I wonder if they are all safe for any kind of fish or if they’d change the water parameters to any risky level?

No, they should be only beneficial to your tank inhabitants - you have obtained them from a reputable source so you can just go ahead and add them to your tank.

You may find though, that leaves are often the most natural looking botanicals. Common-a-garden oak and beech leaves, collected after they have dropped in winter, are excellent, especially if broken up into pieces so you can't identify their source tree so easily.

The botanicals are: casuarina cones, jacaranda pods, sterculia pod, alnus cones, schima pods, areca pericaps and parviflora pods

Are they all safe for fishes/water parameters?

Yes - incidentally the Alnus cones (aka Alder cones) can also be easily collected in the UK if you find a tree locally.

Can I add as many as I want?

Most will add tint from tannins to your water (both beneficial and desirable if that is the look you are hoping to achieve) - the more you add, the deeper the tint will be.

Do I need to boil them first?

No you don't have to, they can be added straight to the tank, however many of them can take a considerable time before they become water logged and start to sink - up until that point they will just float on the surface.

Boiling them can speed that up somewhat, but it will remove a lot of those beneficial chemicals from the botanicals, so make sure you keep the resulting nice brown water in a jug, and add it to your tank (once cooled) along with the botanicals as desired to achieve the level of tint you want to obtain. That tint will dissipate over time on exposure to tank lights, so you can add more from the jug as necessary.

 

[Wookii]

Incidentally we have an excellent thread on botancials, here: Ripe for Picking: a Guide to Collecting your own Bountiful Botanicals

 

[Marcia]

Thank you Wookii for your very kind and informative reply. ☺️ I’ve got some catalpa leaves in the tank and might forage for some oak leaves in autumn. I quite like the tinted effect on the tank and if it’s best for the fishes then I’ll follow your instructions to boil and keep the brown tea in a jar. My main concern was about the fish and turning the water too acidic or something, but you gave me peace of mind to add them now. Later I’ll find out how difficult it will be to siphon the substrate with all those botanicals in 😅 I’ll lose myself in that thread now. Thank you!

 

[tam]

You may be surprised how little you need to make it tinted, particularly if you aren't boiling first (I don't). I'd suggest adding gradually (also means they won't all need replacing at the same time). As an example - 3 alder cones and a couple of oak leaves noticeably tint my 70l... although I don't go super dark. If you have plants, keep in mind dark tints will limit light. Leaves/alder cones sink within a day or so from dry.

 

[Hanuman]

Are they all safe for fishes/water parameters? Can I add as many as I want?

My main concern was about the fish and turning the water too acidic or something,

With botanicals you very much need to be carefull with what you add specially with alder cones or those botanicals that release humic acid rapidly. That is a real concern you do need to have. As much as botanicals are beneficial to your tank, some of them can acidify the water at a rapid pace if your water is soft. That is why you need to add them progressively so that PH drops slowly. Alder cones are probably those you need to be very conservative about. They are small but powerful. For a 90L tank I wouldn't add more than 2-3 and see from there. Most other botanicals will tend to be slower at releasing acids (humic/tannic acids), so they are safer. Obviously if your water is alkaline and contains lots of carbonates this is less of a problem as PH might have hard times dropping fast due to acids being neutralised.

I am currently running a 22L cube tank with aprox. 35 pleco 2 month-old fry. There are 2 small pieces of wood and a catappa leave in the tank. I added 1 alder cone late in the morning 2 days ago. By mid afternoon the water had noticeably darken and all my fry were desperately trying to get out of the water. They were all close to the water line, some were even with their heads out of the water. I immediatly knew this was the alder cone and that the water's PH had dropped enough to stress them. I did a 70% water change and removed the alder cone. Sprinkled some grounded eggshell to slowly bring PH back up. Withing 2-3 hours everyone was happy and eating again with no casualties.

So yes botanicals are good for your fish but add them very progressively and keep an eye on your fish for any abnormal behavior. Most fish don't mind lower PH but they need to adapt to it progressively.

 

[Marcia]

You may be surprised how little you need to make it tinted, particularly if you aren't boiling first (I don't). I'd suggest adding gradually (also means they won't all need replacing at the same time). As an example - 3 alder cones and a couple of oak leaves noticeably tint my 70l... although I don't go super dark. If you have plants, keep in mind dark tints will limit light. Leaves/alder cones sink within a day or so from dry.

Thank you, that’s good to know, I’ll avoid the alder cones for now. Also good to know how fast they sink.

With botanicals you very much need to be carefull with what you add specially with alder cones or those botanicals that release humic acid rapidly. That is a real concern you do need to have. As much as botanicals are beneficial to your tank, some of them can acidify the water at a rapid pace if your water is soft. That is why you need to add them progressively so that PH drops slowly. Alder cones are probably those you need to be very conservative about. They are small but powerful. For a 90L tank I wouldn't add more than 2-3 and see from there. Most other botanicals will tend to be slower at releasing acids (humic/tannic acids), so they are safer. Obviously if your water is alkaline and contains lots of carbonates this is less of a problem as PH might have hard times dropping fast due to acids being neutralised.

I am currently running a 22L cube tank with aprox. 35 pleco 2 month-old fry. There are 2 small pieces of wood and a catappa leave in the tank. I added 1 alder cone late in the morning 2 days ago. By mid afternoon the water had noticeably darken and all my fry were desperately trying to get out of the water. They were all close to the water line, some were even with their heads out of the water. I immediatly knew this was the alder cone and that the water's PH had dropped enough to stress them. I did a 70% water change and removed the alder cone. Sprinkled some grounded eggshell to slowly bring PH back up. Withing 2-3 hours everyone was happy and eating again with no casualties.

So yes botanicals are good for your fish but add them very progressively and keep an eye on your fish for any abnormal behavior. Most fish don't mind lower PH but they need to adapt to it progressively.

That’s very important information, thank you @Hanuman . I haven’t added anything yet and I’ll be careful adding them gradually, I’m glad you’ve warned me about it. My water is very soft and pH is already on the lower side so I might leave the alder cones out for now. I’ve got some corals that I could add in the filter compartment but I’m not sure if I’ll make ph fluctuate too much that way as I’ve got no experience in measuring tds, gh, kh etc... 🙈 I should learn really.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My water is very soft and pH is already on the lower side so I might leave the alder cones out for now. I’ve got some corals that I could add in the filter compartment

Botanicals only really reduce pH in already very soft water. Humic and tannic compounds are always present in <"natural soft waters"> and they may play an important buffering role in fish health. I'm convinced that they are an important component of nearly all tanks (<"Lake Tanganyikan fish"> may be an exception). I'm not very scientific about it, I just lob a few <"Alder (Alnus) "cones"> and /or some structural leaf litter when I can't see any present any more.

I’ve got some corals that I could add in the filter compartment

Personally <"I wouldn't add any carbonate hardness"> (dKH) unless there was a <"good reason in terms of livestock">. @Roland runs this tank at ~1 dKH <"Soft water tank">.

but I’m not sure if I’ll make ph fluctuate too much that way

Have a look at <"Lean dosing pros and cons">.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

By mid afternoon the water had noticeably darken and all my fry were desperately trying to get out of the water. They were all close to the water line, some were even with their heads out of the water. I immediatly knew this was the alder cone and that the water's PH had dropped enough to stress them. I did a 70% water change and removed the alder cone. Sprinkled some grounded eggshell to slowly bring PH back up. Withing 2-3 hours everyone was happy and eating again with no casualties.

I'd guess that is largely a (lack of) dissolved oxygen effect, rather than a pH one. What was the filtration method?

cheers Darrel

 

[Wookii]

Botanicals only really reduce pH in already very soft water.

That's my thinking too, I would have thought carbonate levels would need to be vanishingly low to cause any major shift in pH. I've added botanicals to tanks in decent proportions with RO water without any carbonate additions without any notable issues. Though I'm talking maybe 8-10 alder cones in 100 litres - perhaps in @Hanuman's case with the small 22 litre water volume, and more sensitive fish fry, the chemical changes were too rapid?

Not to take anything away from @Hanuman 's experiences though, and its a valid point, moderation is always the best policy when making any changes to a tank.

 

[Marcia]

Hi @dw1305 thank you for your advice, I’m reading the articles you linked. I live in the same area as @Roland and probably have the very same water parameters. My main goal to add botanicals is for the fishes’ well-being but I also love when they get interested in something new in the tank and explore under leaves, move things around (mr. pleco), it can only be good for their mental health 😅 but having very soft water is my concern so I’m not sure how many botanicals to add yet.

 

[Hanuman]

That's my thinking too, I would have thought carbonate levels would need to be vanishingly low to cause any major shift in pH. I've added botanicals to tanks in decent proportions with RO water without any carbonate additions without any notable issues. Though I'm talking maybe 8-10 alder cones in 100 litres - perhaps in @Hanuman's case with the small 22 litre water volume, and more sensitive fish fry, the chemical changes were too rapid?

Not to take anything away from @Hanuman 's experiences though, and its a valid point, moderation is always the best policy when making any changes to a tank.

Hi all,

I'd guess that is largely a (lack of) dissolved oxygen effect, rather than a pH one. What was the filtration method?

cheers Darrel

Nope. That is definately a PH drop. That tank is overly oxygenated. It has a 2-sponge filter with air stone + additional airstone + small water pump sitting at the surface to increase even further oxygenation. There is only a very thin layer of substrate. Reason PH dropped is due to the alder cone and the fact that I use RO water and only remineralize it with calcium and magnesium, no carbonates, which means PH can drop far more easily than if I used tap water or added carbonates.
I did the test again today except this time I left the alder cone for about an hour. Same story. Fish began behaving the same way. Some started their ascent to the top so I immediatly knew what it was and removed the alder cone. Within an hour they all had settled.

 

[Wookii]

Nope. That is definately a PH drop. That tank is overly oxygenated. It has a 2-sponge filter with air stone + additional airstone + small water pump sitting at the surface to increase even further oxygenation. There is only a very thin layer of substrate. Reason PH dropped is due to the alder cone and the fact that I use RO water and only remineralize it with calcium and magnesium, no carbonates, which means PH can drop far more easily than if I used tap water or added carbonates.
I did the test again today except this time I left the alder cone for about an hour. Same story. Fish began behaving the same way. Some started their ascent to the top so I immediatly knew what it was and removed the alder cone. Within an hour they all had settled.

Just out of interest, did you measure the pH change?

 

[Hanuman]

Just out of interest, did you measure the pH change?

Nope. My PH pen is dead. But I can't see what it would be other than a PH drop considering my setup (RO water + virtually no substrate).

I used to have the same thing happen to me when I was trying to breed amanos. That time I had prepared an extract/concentrate from catappa leaves. Each time I added ~5ml of the extract in the 60L tank after a water change, shrimps started darting around. I ended up not using the extract anymore as it was creating too much stress and honestly was not necessary for my project. I could have lowered the dosage also but didn't.

I am sure I would have a different experience if I used tap water but I can't relly on it as it tends to swing a lot tds wise.

 

[Wookii]

Nope. My PH pen is dead. But I can't see what it would be other than a PH drop considering my setup (RO water + virtually no substrate).

I used to have the same thing happen to me when I was trying to breed amanos. That time I had prepared an extract/concentrate from catappa leaves. Each time I added ~5ml of the extract in the 60L tank after a water change, shrimps started darting around. I ended up not using the extract anymore as it was creating too much stress and honestly was not necessary for my project. I could have lowered the dosage also but didn't.

I am sure I would have a different experience if I used tap water but I can't relly on it as it tends to swing a lot tds wise.

You could just add a little Potassium Bi/Carbonate to give you around 0.5-1KH, than surely it'll struggle to change the pH by much, and you still get the benefits of the extract?

If you need to work out the quantities, we have this brilliant spreadsheet called the IFC Calculator . . . not sure if you've heard of it . . . 😂😜

 

[Hanuman]

You could just add a little Potassium Bi/Carbonate to give you around 0.5-1KH, than surely it'll struggle to change the pH by much, and you still get the benefits of the extract?

Yeap. I don't have KHCO3. I added some eggshell for longer term and a pinch of magnesium carbonate earlier today after the test.

If you need to work out the quantities, we have this brilliant spreadsheet called the IFC Calculator . . . not sure if you've heard of it . . . 😂😜

Let me go check that calculator. Someone else refered to it as 'DOPE'. Might be worth a try.

 

[John q]

What a fantastic thread we have on the go right here, reminds me of a forum I once knew where peeps discussed the ins and outs of various subjects in a light hearted manner until they got to the important nuts and bolts of the matter, I think it was called Ukaps 😀

Anways, jokes aside... yes I know I always joke; This thread got me thinking..
When I did the tint test in the "ripe for picking" thread I never tested the ph, the main reason for this was mainly due to the assumption that you can't accurately test ph in soft, low tds water with cheap ph pens.
Whilst this may still hold true, I'm confident enough to suggest we can test the ph, or more importantly the ph drop accurately enough for our needs.

With the above in mind I'm going to re run the tests with a selection of botanicals and measure the effect it has on ph.
Botanicals to be tested will be.
Parviflora pods.
Alder cones.
Casuarina cones.
Oak leaves.

Will start off with tap water ~0.7 dkh and also do same tests with deionised water with 3dgh added.

Hopefully this will give us some (un scientific) insight into the effects botanicals have on the ph of our fish tanks.

Probably be a few days before we get any results.

 

[Wookii]

What a fantastic thread we have on the go right here, reminds me of a forum I once knew where peeps discussed the ins and outs of various subjects in a light hearted manner until they got to the important nuts and bolts of the matter, I think it was called Ukaps 😀

Anways, jokes aside... yes I know I always joke; This thread got me thinking..
When I did the tint test in the "ripe for picking" thread I never tested the ph, the main reason for this was mainly due to the assumption that you can't accurately test ph in soft, low tds water with cheap ph pens.
Whilst this may still hold true, I'm confident enough to suggest we can test the ph, or more importantly the ph drop accurately enough for our needs.

With the above in mind I'm going to re run the tests with a selection of botanicals and measure the effect it has on ph.
Botanicals to be tested will be.
Parviflora pods.
Alder cones.
Casuarina cones.
Oak leaves.

Will start off with tap water ~0.7 dkh and also do same tests with deionised water with 3dgh added.

Hopefully this will give us some (un scientific) insight into the effects botanicals have on the ph of our fish tanks.

Probably be a few days before we get any results.

Sounds like a good plan Jon, make sure it’s a decent/ representative quantity of water for each item - maybe 10 litres per?

 

[John q]

maybe 10 litres per?

Will do mate but more than likely x grams per 1~2 litres. Folks should be able to scale up/down from that. (I've to buy deionised water 😆)

Also not sure the lady boss would be happy with 4 10 ltr buckets on the kitchen window sill.

 

[Wookii]

I've to buy deionised water 😆

That’s virtually what you get out of the tap it! 🙄😤😂