Plant deficiencies and the Fe Experiment

[Happi]

In fact, studies have shown that Fe can be dosed up to approximately 13ppm before becoming toxic to plants.

where can I find this study for Under Water plant?

So there's plenty of empirical evidence that there is no connection.

BBA is more closely related to poor/unstable CO2 uptake.

Evidence should be taken from both sides, one with BBA and one without BBA while using the same method (in this case EI method) and so far the Evidence does suggest that there are Many/More EI users with BBA issues. I don't think we should ignore those 50 people with BBA when only 5 of them didn't have BBA. if those 50 people were to use different method and gets rid of BBA, then that would be a strong evidence to support.

BBA is more closely related to poor/unstable CO2 uptake.

if this was the case, then tank using high lights and no CO2 will be subject to BBA. if anything, I find more evidence that such system were free from BBA.

BTW, many people also get BBA when their aquarium become soda stream and lack O2. such system have a negative affect on different kind of bacteria and such system are prone to more kinds of algae.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Excess Iron, Lots of CO2 and Acidic substrate are some good conditions to grow BBA.

We just don't know what <"causes BBA"> (Audouinella spp.) outbreaks, or why the algae <"sometimes detaches"> for no apparent reason, although it may be linked to <"alternation of generations">. There are some microscope images here: <"What exactly causes BBA?">

Anecdotally the <"best BBA"> I've ever seen was the <"Gorilla Fake fur"> in a local pet shop. Our water is hard, and the tanks had a pea gravel substrate, but they may never have changed any water.

I watch this one quite often (originally posted by @zozo), I'm not interested in the fish, but the algae is just mesmerising.



cheers Darrel

 

[Happi]

Hi all,

We just don't know what <"causes BBA"> (Audouinella spp.) outbreaks, or why the algae <"sometimes detaches"> for no apparent reason, although it may be linked to <"alternation of generations">. There are some microscope images here: <"What exactly causes BBA?">

Anecdotally the <"best BBA"> I've ever seen was the <"Gorilla Fake fur"> in a local pet shop. Our water is hard, and the tanks had a pea gravel substrate, but they may never have changed any water.

I watch this one quite often (originally posted by @zozo), I'm not interested in the fish, but the algae is just mesmerising.



cheers Darrel

Darrel, I believe you misunderstood my post.

"Excess Iron, Lots of CO2 and Acidic substrate are some good conditions to grow BBA."

This is a most common condition for EI dosed aquarium. Even under hard water setups, the BBA was mostly commonly found when Iron was present in excessive amounts, BBA was fairly common in such setups where Iron gluconate was used, such as seachem Iron.

Ammonium/Urea has very little to do with BBA, atleast in my experience. I haven't seen any BBA outbreaks in my aquariums for very long time now. The primary thing I changed was Iron and Micros.

 

[Wookii]

Darrel, I believe you misunderstood my post.

"Excess Iron, Lots of CO2 and Acidic substrate are some good conditions to grow BBA."

This is a most common condition for EI dosed aquarium. Even under hard water setups, the BBA was mostly commonly found when Iron was present in excessive amounts, BBA was fairly common in such setups where Iron gluconate was used, such as seachem Iron.

Ammonium/Urea has very little to do with BBA, atleast in my experience. I haven't seen any BBA outbreaks in my aquariums for very long time now. The primary thing I changed was Iron and Micros.

Personally I suspect the iron, or indeed fert dosing at all, is a red herring in direct relation to BBA, as is the acidic substrate (I've seen it in plenty of tanks with sand/gravel). I would agree is seems to like higher CO2 areas though.

For me BBA predominently appears with excessive organic waste material in the water column. Darrel's favourite video above is a prefect example - I would assume there is 'zero' fert dosing or iron in that tank, but a huge organic loading with all those large predators in the tank.

Commonly in the tanks with BBA that you see on this forum, that organic loading comes from some deterioration in plant health (rotting leaves etc) or insufficient maintenance/water changes, whatever those reasons may be.

I've had BBA appear in my own tanks when I have inadvertently let the micro's run out in the auto-doser - there's been a notable deterioration in plant leaf health at the same time - but iron levels would have been (and were) at zero measurable levels (down from their 0.2ppm weekly dosing). It took about two weeks for the BBA to appear, and then about 2 months to disappear on its own once the dosing was back up to speed.

 

[keef321]

Latest update
Tank Parameters: 70% RODI / 30% Tap, degassed tank water PH 7.2 (co2 injected to 6.2 when lights are on), KH 2.4, GH 5, TDS (0.5) 133
If I dose 0.16 DTPA per week in addition to 1/2 EI ferts, the following happens:

• Frogbit (DW index) showed signs first, I got the black zebra stripes, followed then by lighter green colour of leaf, finally followed by slow disintegration of the plant.
• Slow growing plants such as anubius and s.repens, had a noticeable increase in algae.
• Stem plants such as Rotata started to stunt and see an increase in algae.

Once I went back to 0.5ppm DTPA iron per week, the Frogbit recovered, algea reduced and plants stopped stunting (stunted tips needed cutting off, as from experience they will not regrow).

I was suprised by these results, as with a PH of 7.2 (nearer to neutral) I expected the mix of iron (EDTA, DTPA, and EDDHA) within the all-in-one fertislier to be sufficient. I am starting to appreciate more now that PH is not linear in nature, therefore 7.0 - 7.2 is larger than one thinks.

If it had not been for the use of Frogbit (DW index), and I was not already experienced in iron deficiency, it would have been difficult to spot the fact that the increased algae, and general decreased health in plants, was due to iron. This makes me wonder if there is more misdiagnosed iron deficiency out there than we think? or if this is just due to my particular water chemistry. Your thoughts would be appreciated @dw1305 ?

As I have cheery shrimp in this tank, I am not sure if I would risk increasing the RODI mix further (without harming shrimp, due to low GH), to see if I can find the point where this is not an issue (I assume PH 7.0 or below). I have achieved my goal of being able to grow Rotala sp. 🙂 , therefore perhaps I should accept dosing DTPA as a happy medium.

Comments / thoughts are welcome.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Your thoughts would be appreciated @dw1305 ?

I'll give it a go.

I have achieved my goal of being able to grow Rotala sp. 🙂 , therefore perhaps I should accept dosing DTPA as a happy medium.

Simple enough, <"that one">.

......... Personally I use FeEDTA, because I have soft rainwater, if I had to use our tap water (about 17 dGH & 17 dKH) I'd use FeEDDHA and @Craig Matthews & @Zeus. 's <"pink tint">.

Once I went back to 0.5ppm DTPA iron per week, the Frogbit recovered, algae reduced and plants stopped stunting (stunted tips needed cutting off, as from experience they will not regrow). If it had not been for the use of Frogbit (DW index), and I was not already experienced in iron deficiency, it would have been difficult to spot the fact that the increased algae, and general decreased health in plants, was due to iron.

I think iron (Fe) is a much misdiagnosed deficiency. In the past (during the <"laterite is essential">) time period all problems with plant growth were put down to lack of iron (when <"most of them weren't iron related">), but since then, to some degree, it has gone out of fashion as an explanation.

For me it was only really once I'd realised that iron deficiency causes chlorosis in new growth (because iron isn't mobile within the plant) that I began to see it. It had always been there in some of the cases I'd dismissed, I just didn't realise it.

I think my view had been blinkered by the <"all plant growth issues are down to lack of CO2"> message. I've never been a CO2 user, so didn't have any practical experience of CO2 enhanced tanks, and the penny still hadn't really dropped that a floating plant allowed <"you to remove CO2 deficiency from the equation">.

This makes me wonder if there is more misdiagnosed iron deficiency out there than we think? or if this is just due to my particular water chemistry.

I think if you have <"hard, alkaline water"> some plants (<"like Rotala rotundifolia">) will always be iron deficient, unless you use a chelator (for iron) stable at higher pH levels.

We have had one case (@Hufsa's) where chlorosis in new leaves <"wasn't caused by lack of plant available iron"> (it was manganese (Mn)), but they have very, very different tap water from the majority of us.

cheers Darrel

 

[keef321]

I think my view had been blinkered by the <"all plant growth issues are down to lack of CO2"> message. I've never been a CO2 user, so didn't have any practical experience of CO2 enhanced tanks, and the penny still hadn't really dropped that a floating plant allowed <"you to remove CO2 deficiency from the equation">.

This is interesting, because I was also blinkered. I was so obsessed with trying to perfect my CO2 distribution and getting it perfect due to what I had read (all problems are co2 related, if you are a co2 user). I tried different CO2 diffusers, I tried spray bars, I tried different lily pipes, I got obsessed with flow and upgraded my filter. I ignored my gut feeling that it was fertilisers. Now sure you can have problems with your CO2 and I have had problems with my CO2, but the problems from lack of iron can really have disastrous consequences as in my case.

We have had one case (@Hufsa's) where chlorosis in new leaves <"wasn't caused by lack of plant available iron"> (it was manganese (Mn)), but they have very, very different tap water from the majority of us.

although my situation was iron, I also had some issues with manganese, and I got best results mixing both iron and manganese. For me it was as though the manganese was the final piece in the puzzle.

 

[Zeus.]

I think the

all problems are co2 related, if you are a co2 user)

I think this is more applicable to folk who dose EI levels of ferts, as soon as you go leaner you may not be dosing in abundance.

 

[keef321]

I think the

I think this is more applicable to folk who dose EI levels of ferts, as soon as you go leaner you may not be dosing in abundance.

I was at that time dosing full EI levels of ferts, but the full EI levels did not provide enough and the right type of chelated irons needed for my hard water.

But, I understand and appreciate your point, and perhaps for those without my hard water issues, and with the EI methodology it should just leave co2 or light as the resulting culprit for issues.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

... although my situation was iron, I also had some issues with manganese, and I got best results mixing both iron and manganese. For me it was as though the manganese was the final piece in the puzzle.

I think that is why <"Chempak Sequestered Iron"> includes manganese (Mn) and magnesium (Mg) as well as iron (Fe), it just covers all, chlorosis related, bases.

Cheers Darrel

 

[Zeus.]

But, I understand and appreciate your point, and perhaps for those without my hard water issues, and with the EI methodology it should just leave co2 or light as the resulting culprit for issues.

Had the same issue myself, very hard water. Which lead to much reading/learning DIY ferts, which in turn led to the IFC Calculator, necessity being the mother of invention/creation.